Bay 12 Games Forum

So, this is probably going to sound insane, but awhile back I decided to start compiling a list of all the changes and features we're going to see in the next version. It was going to be a project for the community as well as Toady, and serve as a neat reminder as to how insanely huge this version coming up is going to be. I ended up abandoning the idea so I could focus on school. However, I'm back to it now with finals almost over.

I present to you...The List



http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AT8EQVUjrv96ZGc5cnBwOHZfMjgyY3FzZHFtanA&hl=en

(You don't need to a Google Docs account to see it)

I went through the entire devlog from the last version up until the start of December to gather the info. I'm now going to march through the various Future of the Fortress questions Toady has answered as well as the podcast transcripts to try and fill in as many more things as I can.

This is where you guys can help. I can guarantee you I didn't catch everything, and there's a good chance I may have gotten things wrong. I tried to play it safe, and any time Toady said he "planned on doing something" or felt it "definitely was going in", I didn't actually put it into the notes unless he said for sure it was done.

Also, don't worry too much about the structure of it - I'm purposefully leaving it very freeform right now so I can make sweeping changes as I see fit. After everything is put in I'll worry about the ordering of the list itself.

So! Find things I missed and let me know and I'll toss them in. After this is done - well, more done then it is - I plan on sharing it with as many places as I can find, if only to help build hype for those who haven't DFed in a long time. It might also be useful to Toady when he releases this version so he has a starting point when making such a huge list himself!

Laptops only have bad cooling if you block the vents, which admittedly is easy to do.

But what the hell is going on in this topic? My goodness.

Quote from: SirPenguin on November 07, 2009, 09:03:15 pm

I believe it has served its course!

A cheese platter?

I'm surprised no one has made the classic "want some cheese with that whine?" joke. It's dangling there for the taking!

And he still hasnt answered my question, "Why do you care milking isnt in?"

What don't you understand? And I mean the general "you" here, everyone who keeps thinking "WELL MILKING IS INCONSEQUENTIAL WHAT A SILLY THING TO ARGUE ABOUT!" is a valid post in this topic.

There are two conclusions to why milking isn't in.

1. It's easy to do, yet Toady does not do it, showing that he'd rather add more minute details which might not affect anything instead of fleshing out his current systems which would be easy to program and beneficial to all.

2. It isn't easy to do, showing that Toady is a very bad or inexperienced programmer, and thus casting the whole project in a very worrying light.

It's not the specific fact that you cannot milk cows that he is arguing. It's the conclusions (ones that can be drawn for many, many features), both of which are pretty worrying in their own right.

Only it's not quite so simple, Sir Penguin.  Toady does take input from the community, he just does it in the order he sees as best.

So you agree, then, that he simply does what he wishes rather than what we, the community paying him, wishes.

I am not arguing whether or not this is bad or good, just that it is what it is, and it's what some people are fine with whereas others have issues. It's a model that's worked for him for a couple of years now, and it's a model that the community seems ok with, given the fact most months he makes a pretty penny. But you cannot be surprised when some people are upset (or at the very least confused) at the arrangement. It's a very unique one, and that's with good reason: it doesn't make any sense.

I am a programmer, it's my life.  If I didn't do it for work, I'd do it for fun at home.  I'd like to offer some insight into two points that seem to be easily glossed over on these forums.

First - In reference to how bad the code for milking can possibly be and it not being a quick fix shows how badly DF is coded overall:  I am not the programmer today I was last year, nor the year before that.  Every day of programming is a day of learning what works and what doesn't.  I've cringed looking back at some of the things I've done years ago and you can't measure my skill today by the code I wrote then.  If Toady orginally wrote code for something 3 years ago - I can almost guarantee he wouldn't code it that way again.

Second - In reference to not completely smoothing out all the bumps (no matter how seemingly easy) that cause us problems (like dwarves sealing themselves in when building walls).  If anyone has bothered reviewing the goals he's set for this project you'd understand he has a lot that he wants to implement that isn't implemented yet.  If one of the parts he has coded 'works good enough' then he needs to go on to the next part.  I have to make these types of decisions every day at work.  When it's good enough to do what needs done and there's still more parts yet to code - you've got to just move on.

Bonus Thought - Withholding donations from Toady would only result in him having to get a job, THEN what would the release schedule be like.

The basis of the "Toady is a bad programmer" argument is that he is very inexperienced. I am also a programmer, though perhaps not as experienced as yourself, but I'm sure we both realize that programming is about 75% planning and 25% implementing. It can be argued that Toady is good at implementing stuff, but he definitely is not proficient at planning. I'm not sure what the issue is at its core, whether it's simply Toady biting off more than he could chew or if its his severe lack of experience that holds him back. It's irrelevant.

Like it or not, we are Toady's investors here, yet we're in a situation where the investee is off doing whatever it is they want without really listening to the investors. Stranger still, people want to argue that it's ok for the investee to do whatever, because sometime in the indescribable future, something will happen that'll be kind of neat and worth the investment

…………………………………………………. __ . __……………………
……………………………………………….../’`: : `\,---`.„…………………
………………………………………………../|,-‘`ŻŻ`\(@)_\,----,,,_………..
………………„~*ŻŻ`”\,………... _„_………( `\(@),,_/` Ż : o : : :o `-, …...
……………../ : · :(“,.~;*’ŻŻŻ”\, (_,-- ``”~,….\ : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : `\…..
………….....| : · :,/`,-*~;~··-„,/ (‘` ``)/· ,…\.,/` : : :_„„,: : : : : : : : : : : \…
…………….| : · / ,/`,--\ \’`c\,---„1 ‹’`--(_ ,/ / : : :,/` · · ): : : : : : : : : : : |…
……………..) : µ’` .\ (c) `Ż . . ·`), . ,-~`.. \ : : :| · · '”\, : : : : : : : : : : :/…
……………/` ,/_~-, .`;;`„-„,__,./, ```/……. `\: :\ · · · · `*-.,_ : : : : : :,-‘ ….
……………`-/¨;--;~’ `”*-=,=-_`” ,) ,/`……….`› : `\, · · · · · · Ż”~---,--`…….
…„„………__\, · ‘, · . . . `\„_,/ ,/;-;_ ……. /` ` | ./ · · · · · · · · „-“…………
.( :·`\,-~*`Ż · · ·`Ż` `~--~*~---~;/`,-~*```*--, `1` / : | · · · ,---~*”`……………
. \·:··:”*~-,,„„____„„,.-~”`ŻŻŻŻ/ / · · · · · ‘\,) , / : :| · · · ·\………………….
…`”’~-,„„„„„„,,~‘`` . ( · · · ,.__| | · · · ·, `\„„/ ,/`: : / · · · · ·| ………………..
…………………….\`”””` · · ·`’~;-,„,,_)”`_-‘ : : / · · · · · · | ………………..
……… (`*”-,„,-”ŻŻ”`-;„· · · · · · , /'``,-~”`Ż: : : :/ · · · · · · |.………………..
………. | : :(,;-===-„, `\,· · · ,-`| · ·/ : : : | :,/` · · · · · · ·| ………………..
……… . \ : :\, · · · · \\ · `\. ·)· / · / : :\ : :`~,_ · · · · · ./ …………………
………… \\,_`~.,_„,.-*\\, `/,/„/` ,/ : : :`’;-.„_ : Ż-, · · · /,…………………..
…………..`\,,`”| : :`-,„_„))’`"` ·,/`_„,~*’` · · ( · , ,`)· ·,-; `’\,………………..
……………..`*-\ : : : `~----~*` / · · · · · · · · “”~”` ·/` ·( _ :)………………
…………. ,.Ĵ-,--\ : : : : : : : : / · · · · · · · · · ·,,-“`…..’-„,-‘……………….
…………..| |: :*:\ : : : : : : :_/ „____„„„„,---~*`……………………………
…………./ / : : : `~-„„„„„,.;;`,,.--`………………………………………….
…………| | : : : :|Ż : ,/ Ż ………………………………………………….
………….\,\,_,„./---~`………………………………………………………
………………………………………………………………………………