Bay 12 Games Forum

Why do you want Dwarves to have human needs and human biological failings?

I don't. But I do want them to have the failings intrinsic to every form of life as we know it: A dependence on specific chemical processes to sustain their existence. That means eating, drinking, and respiration (in the case of every large animal known to science). Respiration will eventually consume all of the essential gas for any specific creature, whether because the gas has been fixed into the body of the creature or because it has been chemically altered so it no longer functions in the metabolism.

I feel a need to emphasize a point:

Other things have to live in caves as well.

Dwarves take along their dogs, their cats, their cows...and as the game is they do just fine sealed in a room where they can't move for years on end. Absurd. For other reasons than breathing, of course, but that's the one that would probably kill them first.

And no, I don't object to purring maggots. What's unreasonable about purring maggots? Can you give me a single reason why purring maggots couldn't exist? I'm pretty sure you can't, because we know virtually nothing about purring maggots. But I see nothing inherently wrong with an insect species that has become neotenic and stays a squishy mass that dwarves can squeeze a protein rich fluid out of.

Floors don't necessarily have 'no' thickness. It's just undefined at this point. Of course, things like the fluid mechanics blur this point a bit; a square with no floor holds the same amount of liquid as a square that does have floor.

I think any concept of ceilings that separates them from the floor below would need to look something like this in cross section:
░░░░░░░░░░░░░ceiling
▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓z-1
▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓z-1
░░░░░░░░░░░░░floor
░░░░░░░░░░░░░ceiling
▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓z-2
▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓z-1
░░░░░░░░░░░░░floor
I have no idea how to handle all the niggly little details with this though. Can you remove a ceiling only? A floor only? Does doing so cause cave-ins? Could each floor-and-ceiling slice be its own z-level? Could each row on the diagram above represent a vertical layer, with tunnels being diggable starting on any vertical layer? If that was done, you could end up with stuff like this:
░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░
▓▓▓▓▓▓▓░░░░░░░░░░░░
▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓░░░░░░
░░░░░░▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓
░░░░░░░░░░░░▓▓▓▓▓▓▓
░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░░
Where a floor layer is a ceiling layer further down the tunnel. With fancier ramps, this would allow for some pretty nifty tunnel configurations. But it adds complexity to mining and fortress layout, and I don't know if that's desire-able. It might make it easier to handle 'tall' creatures...I don't know.

Unless dwarfs are using a really odd metabolism, they're going to have trouble with CO². Carbon dioxide levels in the bloodstream are one of those fiddly little things that has to be juuust right. If it goes off either up or down you change the pH of blood, and that makes everything else go out of whack. Whatever magical abilities dwarfs have, at the end of the day it comes down to having a low enough CO² level in the air they breathe for the excess to be exhaled efficiently.

As to 'breathing' CO² instead of oxygen: Plants can do that because they take the stuff and turn it into wood, or leaves, or fruit, etc. etc. They need sunlight to do it. There's no sunlight underground. And potted mushrooms aren't going to be scrubbing the stuff either, they're just going to be breaking down the poo they're growing in.

All of that ignores other dangerous underground gases (radon and methane off the top of my head, from granite and coal respectively) and particulates. At the very least we should need to have ventilation to prevent massive explosions when mining coal.

So no building additional floors or ceilings, just a few extra lines of text in the programming (when possible since I dont know what the ceiling would be if the level above is soil)

This was what I had in mind. I like the idea of being able to build ceilings in the same way floors are built as well.

All that would really mean is adding another 'slice' to the tile. But there are a lot of things that could be implemented using ceilings: Chandeliers, the aforementioned engravings, maybe things like ventilation and sprinkler systems once pipes are implemented. It makes more sense to place those outside of the normal tile area, and possibly even out of sight. I'd want a toggle key that switched the view to the 'ceiling' layer to make working with it simpler, but I think it has a lot of potential.

You can already engrave so many tiles per room, its ridiculous.

No, it's not. Really fancy temples and the like would have pretty much every surface engraved, painted, frescoed, inlaid with mosaics, gilded...the player should have the ability to do all of these things.

Even if the player can't perceive engraved ceilings (yet, we don't know what the graphics are going to look like five years down the road), the dwarfs could be coded to look at and appreciate a ceiling that is only visible to the player in the look menu.

Where the waterfall is dumping water into the river faster than it drains doesn't count. The actual river and riverbanks are never more than one z-level deep, in my experience.

Yeah, I've had a dwarf give birth to twins before. I was pretty excited.

Fairly simple idea based on walls creating a floor above them.

First off, you have the vault area. Construct this by channeling out a space one tile larger than the interior vault dimensions desired. Add constructed walls on the outer tiles. Dig out the tiles near them, so that there's easy access to important areas of your fort.

Now, flood the area on top of the vault. If the vault's walls are deconstructed, the vault and the fort will flood. Pressurize the water for maximum fun. The only way to get at the vault now is to drain the water over it. Add enough water and that should be pretty tough. Maybe use a hidden atom smasher as the 'vault key'... You could hide/booby trap the lever for it by replacing one of the vault walls with a floodgate. Or a floodgate linked to a single use pressure plate set to trigger when water hits it. That in turn would be controlled by another floodgate linked to your booby trap levers; that way it's impossible to close the floodgate again once it opens.

You'll also need the level immediately beneath the vault flooded or otherwise made inaccessible. The whole setup is useless if your friend can just dig an up staircase.