Bay 12 Games Forum

It's probably because your manager needs to take time to approve each task, so larger tasks take longer to approve.  I do wish you could just enter 100 and it would automatically split it into multiples of 30.

The barrel is mew'ing...

A reference to the Catsplosion and its solution, mentioned in previous comics

http://threepanelsoul.com/view.php?date=2008-04-21
http://threepanelsoul.com/view.php?date=2008-05-12

Quote from: Inindo on September 20, 2008, 12:35:47 pm

Miner starts digging, while rest of the seige clusters around the tunnel entrance, defending it.  Miner randomly goes up or down a Z-level every so often to keep you guessing which Z-level to put your army, in case you find him.  As soon as the miner hits Fortress, he begins to widen the entrance as fast as he can before he's forced to retreat.  Seige only goes down the hole once the miner hits fortress.  This solves the concerns you addressed.

The whole point of a "siege tunnel" or whatever is that the attackers go down in it.  So when such a tunnel is dug, one of three things happen:

1) All the attackers go with the sapper.  In this case, the scenario I described happens: bloodbath in the tunnel.

2) All the attackers stay at the entrance*.  In this case, the tunnel does literally nothing for them.  Thus a whole ton of time and effort will have been spent doing absolutely nothing, when it could have been spent doing something productive.  Like, say...anything.

3) Some of the attackers go with the sapper, some of the attackers stay at the entrance.  In which case both scenarios happen at once: one set of up/down stairs lets defenders be right where the breakthrough is no matter what z-level it's on, resulting in a bloodbath at that end, with the rest of the troops being irrelevant to the discussion.

Then the miner makes the tunnles 2, 3, n squares wide, allowing more goblins to rush in at once.  If the goblins stay on the outside until the miner hits fortress and widens the hole, it lessens the time they actually spend during the tunnel. Worst case scenario the sapper gets intercepted by your own tunnel and get killed, which case all the goblins lose is a sapper.

A set of stairs close to the walls (or rather, all the walls since we don't know where the goblins will dig in) can help in rapid deployment, but would absolutely stink if something went wrong and the goblins made it past the breach, since they can now use them to rapidly spread throughout the fortress, turning it into an urban warfare situation.

*(by stay at the entrance, I mean don't go down the tunnel, one way or another.  Hang out aboveground by the entrance, hang out a couple tiles inside, go attack the old-fashioned way, whatever.)

Let me try to put my feelings another way: basically, the big problem I have with this sort of siege-tunnel is that it's a solution without necessarily diagnosing the problems.  As I see it, the problems with sieges are this:

1) Walls and/or moats make a siege irrelevant.  Lock the doors, plant some plump helmets, and wait for them to get bored and leave.
2) Traps are overpowered.
3) Fortifications make Marksdwarves overpowered.
4) Champions will utterly massacre ten times their number without a scratch.

The way to fix the current problems with sieges is to reduce or nullify each of these problems.  There are lots of solutions to these problems, many of which have been suggested time and time again, and all these solutions are a lot simpler than trying to create an AI that can actually dig sapper tunnels worth a damn:

1) DG's idea of making sieges cause unhappy thoughts.  Wall-breaking/crossing + moat-bridging.
2) Nerf traps in some way (for which there are as many different suggestions as there are posters).
3) Siege engines to knock away fortifications.  Bolt-resistant attackers (such as siege towers).  Outright nerfs to ranged weapons.
4) Make champions harder to get.  Make goblins not suck (seriously, unarmored, non-elite wrestlers versus ☼steel☼-clad axedwarves?).

Now tell me that it would be simpler to write an entirely new AI routine that not only works, but that can deal with terrain that even experienced players have trouble with than doing these things would be.  And tell me how making sappers instead of these sorts of things would help when digging is impossible, such as when there's an aquifer.

It would be simpler to write an entirely new AI routine that not only works, but that can deal with terrain that even experienced players have trouble with than doing these things.

. . . What?  You asked!

Seriously though, if you read my posts you'll realize that the reason I brought this discussion up (notice it's not in the suggestions forum) is to bring attention to the fact that this tactic could be much more effective in the DF-verse than in real life, can potentially be done by both players and AI, and can drastically alter how warfare is handled.  It was not intended as The Solution to the Seige Problem, though it does do help alleviate the problem.  It's just another potential idea on how to enrich Dwarf Fortress by allowing as much freedom as possible when performing actions.  If Dwarf Fortress was programmed with the "simplest way to solve a problem" mentality, it wouldn't BE Dwarf Fortress.  We're talking about a game that allows you to simulate thousands of years of history here!

I don't like the idea of having random breaches in your defenses.  This makes it impossible for a skilled player to prevent sappers (such as the magma sandwiched between two walls diagram someone drew earlier) or intercept them before they get to the fortress.

As for digging AI, it should be particularly straightforward.  Dig down to a random Z-level, then dig towards random spot in the fortress on that Z-level, with normal path finding around damp/hot/other obstructing tiles.

I think the issues with easy digging in warfare isn't just bypassing walls and moats.  Currently in Dwarf Fortress (and in real life medieval times) attacks are launched from just one Z-level, leading people to defend that Z-level with walls, archers, and moats.  However, with easy mining, now ANY Z-level can be attacked.  You'll not only have to fortify the surface with walls and defenses, but every single Z-level, plus the floor, since now everything is reachable via miners.  You'll also need additional contingency plans in case of a breach and how to quickly seal off sections of the fort long enough for your military to arrive.  It really forces a lot of change in gameplay, and so should be carefully considered.

There are a few things that increase difficulty, but I don't think they're enough.

Ambushes and Seiges are the big ones, and to be honest I've lost far more fortresses to Ambushes than Seiges, simply because at the beginning the Military is still slowly being developed and trained.  Usually they catch me when my army is still unprepared and kill a few key workers, crippling my production.  If I survive and get to Seige attacks, by then I'll have enough Markdwarfs to perforate the enemy.  Heck, one of my soldiers managed to take out a third of a siege by himself once.  Plus, they give iron.  It's to the point where many players on this forum refer to Seiges as an iron delivery service.  Even if I lose a few Dwarfs, I get fresh recruits in the next immigrant wave.  However, if you simply increase the difficulty (training takes twice as long, for example) then that just makes things worse, as I'll get splattered by the initial ambushes.

Increased military requirements for Fortress Guards and Royal Guards serve to deplete Dwarfpower, but you don't really NEED all that Dwarfpower.  Most things, once you make them, are usable forever.  You make a communal dining room, a bed, and a tomb for a Dwarf, and he can use them pretty much forever.  There's no steady draw on resources that would force you to get more Masons, Carpenters, Woodcutters etc. to support your growing fortress.  With no increase in consumption, there's no need for an increase in production.  The only thing that Dwarfs actually consume now is Food, Booze, Training bolts, and I think Clothes.  This needs to change in some way, and forcing the Masons and Carpenters to constantly have to upgrade quarters would help in this regard.

Mandates, as they stand now, are of two types: Easy to fulfill, Impossible to fulfill, and Very Irritating Export Bans.  Neither of them really increase the difficulty of the gameplay, except for the random Export Bans which I only had once, and even then I did some emergency industry restructuring and came out OK.  Some sort of happy medium where they are harder, but don't depend on players having goods that do not exist, would help greatly.

One thing that I have noticed in playing the game, and what I think constitutes a problem with balancing the game, is that the output of skilled Dwarves are a lot higher than lower skilled Dwarfs.  This isn't just a slight increase, but as everyone can see there is a dramatic increase in the output a high skilled Dwarf can produce, yet he consumes the same resources as a low skilled Dwarf.

This leads to what I think is the most fundamental balancing problem.  In the beginning, the output of the Dwarves is just about equal to what they consume, but as they skill up this rapidly becomes skewed as they start producing way more until in the end, you're basically untouchable.  On the other hand, just a blanket difficulty increase (such as embarking in a terrifying mountain next to a goblin tower) makes it too deadly in the beginning, when the Dwarfs are still unskilled.  If you ARE good enough to survive the first critical years, then your Dwarfs skill up again and it once more turns into Easy Mode.

What I think needs to happen is that the Dwarfs will consume more resources, both in quality and quantity, the more skilled they are.  Perhaps a simple peasant would be grateful for a roof over his head, but a master engraver demands gems encrusted goblets, fine meals, etc. etc. to keep them happy.  Just being forced to find enough precious metals to smith into coins in order to pay her for her work could be enough.


I suppose another possibility is to decrease the effectiveness of skills, but I like the idea of having Legendary Dwarfs that tower over the plebeians in skill and ability.  It makes the entire thing feel more epic.