Bay 12 Games Forum

One of the frequent complaints about new world gen is that the gobbos are at peace, too many races have died out, or the elves have eaten everybody.

At the end of the day though, world gen is playing through history.  Once Megabeast survival is up (whether through intended means or people modding them), there's really no reason to stop at 1050 rather than 936 or 512.

Why not expand the world gen parameters to allow players to define an interesting point in history, and have it look for it?

I.E.  Start looking 50 -> Finish Looking 1050 OR 20% Megabeasts left or Any civ at 1 site remaining.
Stop on: Goblins at war with dwarves (at least one instance)
AND elves at war with humans
AND elves not at war with dwarves
AND humans not at war with dwarves.

Basically use it to look for an interesting point in history.

This idea shamelessly stolen from the below quote

Is it possible for more than one thing to have the same (creature type) name, or will that break the system?

So there's lots of talk about cats overbreeding.  I'd like to posit the opinion that the cat issues are very similar to the elf issues in world gen.  As in, they don't get killed to way every other breeding pet does.

Dogs die all the time doing real work.  The other animals are all killed for food. 

People have this silly notion that cats aren't food, and yet they don't do anything dangerous the same way dogs do. 

Add that to fact that they have the most effective self defense mechanism (choosing an owner), and you've got pure evil.

Any other reasons cats are a problem?

So far, here's what's come up:

The major 'problem' is that dwarves don't always do things in the order we want them to.  While this is usually possible to micromanage, it takes away some of the fun of playing large fortresses. These fall into two catagories.  Dwarf priorities and Task priorities.

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Issues:

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    Dwarf priorities
        Skilled Dwarves will perform low skill tasks(hauling) rather than their assigned tasks.  When these tasks are removed, they grow bored or are idle. (As there aren't enough skilled tasks to keep them occupied)
        Fish, meat, skins, fat all spoil.  There is no way to make sure that these jobs get accomplished in a timely manner if the dwarf(s) with these jobs are also performing other labours.
        Rare and unusual jobs (like architecture) don't get enough use to keep them busy.  It's usually going to be a side job.  There's no way to keep these dwarfs occupied without massive micromanagement.
        Eating.  Military dwarves will decide if they are hungry or not when put on duty.  If they are, they'll eat before heading out.  That's backwards.  On-Call dwarves should eat when nothing else is up, but be willing to go hungry when the emergency fires are lit.

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    Task priorities
        Certain order important tasks are done in the wrong order (usually mechanics).  Sometimes you want to build the windmills and mechanisms before you build the axels.  Also useful for build from the inside out type tasks. (No walling yourself in)
        No way to specify 'deep' exploratory mining versus the rooms you need now.
        Pull that lever NOW.  Sometimes there are fort emergencies.  At the extreme level, this includes the desire to have a civilian run across 1/7 magma while be chased by a werewolf  in order to pull the fortress lockdown before he's gibbed.  At a more sane level, just being able to say 'grab the closest dwarf and assign them this job' would solve a lot of heartache.
        Naturally low priority tasks may stagnate
        Cooking.  There's food ready to be cooked, but the cook is resting, partying, hauling rocks, or hunting for vermin.
        Miners will occationally grab jobs across the map from them rather than two squares from them.  Conversly, a miner will decide to work right next to the other miners, claiming an important square for the duration of his trip across the map.

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There are a number of suggested fixes discussed below.
        List all open jobs in the jobs screen in order of priority, and allow users to find and change individual jobs
        Skilled versus unskilled.  Dwarves do skilled tasks first, then unskilled.
        Allow user to set priorities, either by number, or high/mid/low for a dwarf
        Allow user to set priorities, either by number, or high/mid/low for a specific job
        Allow user to set priorities, either by number, or high/mid/low for a job types.
                    Profiles could be saved by Dwarf Job Profile
        'Do Now' Toggle (on job screen) that grabs the nearest available (reassignable) dwarf and makes them do it.
        Refactor code to make the behaviors 'correct' without giving player controls (I.E. hardcode solutions to the big problems)
        Allow dwarves to 'steal' jobs from others when they are literally right there.  (Mining right next to it).  This is especially useful if one is traveling, and the other is using the high priority 'grab contiguous square' command.
        Economic Simulation:  Dwarves are already encouraged to do some jobs over others by the differing pay rates.  Allow dwarves to be responsive to this

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This has been discussed as far back as 2006, but seems to require a major rewrite for the way tasks are assigned to dwarves.  That means a lot of work with 'only' the benefits listed above.

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At least partially justified by: New Round of Top  Suggestions Polls.

In the spirit of all the other managed lists out there, I wanted to create a list of mechanical items that are wanted.  I'm going to try just listing names, hopefully they will be self explanatory.  Please contribute ideas for new items, new ways to use the existing items, and previous threads.  Thanks.

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Class A:  New Systems
                 Steam
                                  Steam Appreciation
                 Other Gasses (Steam, Dust, Miasma, Mist, Smoke and DragonFlame exist now.)
                                  Toxic
                                  Flameable
                                  Explosive (Coal Dust and Flour)
                                  Water Vapor
                 Electricity
                 Conservation of Energy (No perpetual motion machines)
                 Gravity damage (ability to drop things on people for damage)
                 Moving Objects and Inertia (Giant Rolling Boulder)
                 Moving and Rotating Walls (Build your own draw bridges + atom + wall smashers with more 'realistic' damages.)
                                  Possibility of moving entire fortress segments (This is crazy)
                                  Devices to transform rotational energy into linear, and vice versa.
                 Tech Tree
                                  Allow dwarves to build anvils without an anvil, picks without first mining.
                                  Assign Techs by Civ, Research new ones over time.
                 Fluid Dynamics
                                  More Flows (Booze and Blood are the most popular, but also acids, bases, etc)
                                                   Define all liquids in the raws, including water and lava
                                                   Ability to define new liquid reactions(magma+water=obsidian style)
                                  Smoother transition from puddle/bucket to a flow
                                  Pressurization and Temperature
                                                   Ability to pressurize objects to change temperature.
                                                   Objects under pressure explode
                                                   Screwpump should not zero out pressure.
                                  Conservation of Mass
                                                   Floodgates should displace, not destroy.
                 Fire
                                  Lighting stuff on fire
                 Optics
                                  Archemides mirror
                                  Mirrors in general
                                  Parabolic Mirrors
                 Construction
                                  Concrete: Period, but of questionable utility
                                          Reinforced Concrete: This is arguably non-period
                 Vehicles (planned, I know)
                                  Raw defined traits for :
                                         Speed, Carrying capacity, Size
                                         Crew,
                                         Movement type (flying, floating, swimming, crawling, climbing, same as critters)
                                         Attacks, Defense, Construction Raws, etc
                 Signal Propagation Delay (Natural delay between i.e. lever and bridge opening)
                 

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Class B:  Power Providers
                 Steam Turbine
                 Kinetic Battery (Hanging Stone, Springs, Tension Coils)
                 Chemical Battery
                 Capstan (Animal or Dwarf Power)
                 Furnace/Incinerator
                 Combustion/Piston Engine

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Class C:  Power Transfers
                 Pipes (For liquids and gasses)
                 Waterproof Axle Section (Gaskets or any other method to have power transfer through an impassible wall)
                 Belts (Use cloth or leather or rope instead of logs for axels.)

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Class D:  Power Users
                 Heavy Doors (require power to move)
                 Clocks
                 Bells
                 Rock Grinders
                 Workshops (Increased efficiency?)
                         Include extra components (I.E. Serrated Saws for Carpentry)
                 Fans
                 Scissors Lifts (Really Mechanical Lifts of any sort)
                 Power Drills (Hydraulic, multisquare, digging straight down)
                 Dwarf Trainers (Sparring Partners or exercise machines)
                 

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Class E: Flow Controllers
                 Vertical Pump
                 Spiggot
                 Pressure Equalizer (needed if Screw Pump is 'corrected')
                 Internal (pipe) Pump
                 Misters (Water Pressure = Mist)
                 Dams and other depth controls.
                 Tripwires
                 Cycling/Alternating device (on/off/on/off/on/off without dwarf intervention)
                 Fuses (Low power, turns on a stored potential device, AKA Mech. Switches)
                 Delay Boxes
                 Temperature Sensor (Unclear if there are good period methods of making this work)

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Class F: Existing Constructions Improvements
                 Pressure Plates
                                  Make them not traps
                                  Make them weight sensitive (rather than creature size)
                                  Allow in the same square as other devices
                                          Inc. hatches for pit traps
                                  Compare to other pressure plates (triggers if greater)
                                  Trinary state (Heavy, Light, in-range)
                                  Extract state from plate (multiple attached devices trigger at different weights.)
                                  Adjust settings after placement
                                  Plates larger than a single tile
                                  Plates with grates (vertical grates too) 
                 Weapon Traps
                                  Make them take up space (Put them in walls, floor, ceilings)
                                  Make them require power
                                  Give Ranged Weapon Traps range
                                  Allow some traps to hit more than one square (Large Serrated disk)
                                  Reduce maximum weapons in one trap (to 3)
                                  Limit weapons to single type (bashing/thrusting)
                                          Require extra mechanism per type
                 Stone Traps
                                  Make them require ceiling
                                  Big stone trap (blocks path)
                 Drawbridge
                                  Make non-instantaneous
                 Mechanisms
                                  Make out of Metal (including axels)
                                  Make ONLY out of Metal
                                  Ability to decouple mechanisms without losing their support.
                                  Grease could be used to improve efficiency (power costs)
                                  Power consumption set in raws (for Axels also)
                                  Power consumption varies by quality (1/X the normal modifier)
                                  Mechancs Templates
                 Levers
                                  Ability to close a door and open a window with one switch
                                  Ability to link levers to levers (master switch controls multiple levers)
                 Traps
                                  Separate Trigger from Trap in most/some cases
                                  Separate Power from Trap in most/some cases
                 Siege Engines
                                  Link to Pressure Plate
                                  Apply power to speed loading(Cocking)
                                  Catapult other objects (barrels of oil
                 General Devices
                                  Able to decouple Levers and Plates from devices.
                                  Able to show linkages
                                  Control from device.  (AKA lower the drawbridge from the drawbridge)
                                  Off/Disabled state for Pressure plates and traps
                                  More complicated signals (On, Off, Heavy, In, Light, etc)
                                  Controllable Time Delays (wait 100 ticks before firing, also, must be on for 100 ticks straight before firing, pendulum for regular timing)
                                  Controlled states (On, Off, Toggle, rather than just ON one way and OFF the other)
                                  Buidling Damage States (Cut the counterweight, door shuts without access to lever type stuff)

Class G:  Other Stuff
                 Small Traps
                 Mine Carts & Conveyor Belts
                 Clocks
                 Alarms & Bells
                         Alarms/levers could be tied to automatic alert level changes.
                 Logical Operators (AND Gates, etc)
                 Ability to hide floodgates/doors
                 Small Mechanisms (Bloat 41, Could be used for Clocks, etc)
                 Sound Pipes (tin can telephone, still lacking a game purpose)

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Class H:  Previous Suggestion Threads

Mechanics
Traps
Logic Gates 1
Metal Mechanisms
pre-1400 Techs
Trap Nerfing
Ice Traps?
Perpetual Motion discussion

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Disclaimer:  I don't agree with everything up here, this is just a list view of the suggestions I've seen.  I plan on keeping the list updated, but only with new items.  The goal is to make new tools for users to design their own physics stuff, not add complicated new 'building in a box' options.  I've also tried to avoid non-specific suggestions involving wear and tear, and other such.  You'll also notice a distinct lack of alchemy, gunpowder, smelting, etc...

Edit: New ideas and links v1
Edit: New Weapon Trap info
Edit: Tech info and Power drills
Edit: Suggestions from below
Edit: Suggestions from below

Is there really a need to have EVERY SINGLE -Mudstone Ring- and xXGiant Cave Spider Silk Left SockXx strewn about the fort when we go back to it?

Kobolds sneak into the fortress on a daily basis.  Would it be too much for them to hall some of this crap away?

On a personal level, what I would like to see is:
Anything that's rotten, or will be rotten, goes away.
Anything that is valued at less than X dwarf bucks goes away.

From a realistic standpoint, you could add:
Anything that's outside, goes away
Anything that's Y steps away from outside or a chasm, goes away.

The painful truth, adds : Anything else has a Z% chance of being stolen.

Mostly, I'm just tired of returning to old forts as an adventurer and wading through the piles of abandonned goblin gear, rotten clothing, and trade goods I never quite got rid of.

tl/dr  -- There is an expressed dev desire to make races randomly.  A simple way to do this is define the random as within general limits for a race. 
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One of the neat things about Master of Orion 2 was the race definitions.  Each race had a set of merits and flaws, bonuses, things it was better at, what have you. 

The thing that made it really neat was that the definitions would change from game to game.  Sure the darloks were always the sneaky spies, and the kracken had stupid high breed rates, but a lot of the details changed about them from game to game.

For example, one game the Darloks would get +10 stealth, while the next time they would get +7 stealth and +3 diplomacy.

Now, DF doesn’t seem to give a flying flip about exacting levels of game balance.  The advantage here is that you can say a dwarf is generally tough (+2 con) but in some worlds they aren’t so tough (+1 con) and in some they are extremely tough (+3 con)

What this allows you to do is play with pseudo random races.  Rather than say ‘I’m going to allow completely random races, and who knows what they’ll do’, allow players to create races with random points.  In some games, dwarves will be tougher than others.


Here’s a few ways to leverage this:

Difficulty modes:  There should be some idea of what a balanced character is.  Say I cost out every thing the race could have and then give the processor a point total.  When it generates the world, it will actually define all the points, spending the points you give it at random.  (Just like MOO2 did,  only with the race defs in the raws)  That being the case, if you generate a world on ‘easy’ mode, the dwarves could be given extra points to start off stronger.

Guaranteed roles:  It’s hard to gel random races with the desire to always see the elves as some take on the hippy types, the dwarves as the tough digging type, etc.  By defining your races as having random ranges, you randomize power levels and balance.  You also create a unique(r) play experience.  What you don’t do, is take away the roles that the races are designed to fill.

Tweaked Political Balances:  Sometimes the humans win, sometimes the goblins.  A small change to both races can quickly throw the civs into a new balance.
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This isn't meant to be a 100% this should happen suggestion, more like a 'this is one way to do this' kind of think about it thing.