Bay 12 Games Forum

I, personally, like the siege operators being non-military.  I do wish they understood the difference between 'near' and 'accessible'.

I'd also like to see them not be restricted inside during the 'soldiers only'

(I about half wish the marksdwarves behaved that way too)

Sorry to be off topic, but I'm confused at the perceived need to dump the stone.  It doesn't really hurt anything where it's at, does it?

The problem I see with tech levels is the recursive nature of the development.  Gunpowder was easy, refining your metalurgy to the point of controlling the explosions, foundries to the level of smooth bores, and chemistry to making the gunpowder of reliable quality, that was what took the work.  Hundreds of years of trial and error eventually producing one new trick that enabled humanity to look for the next incremental improvement.  Along the way, a lot of wasted lives, blown up buildings, etc.

Games with tech trees have spoilt us into thinking that the newest technological developement is just dollars and time away.  (Think about a modern tech tree where every level you buy of engineering says 'allows flying cars' and you'll have a glimpse of where I'm coming from.)

In order to get the gunpowder up, sure you could do that in an alchemy lab, but it would be of random and unknown quality, and generally low.  Anything you built with it would have a 200% error in the fuse length and blast radius.  But, after working for 10 years in the lab on research mode, you'd get the ability to build (gasp) the level 2 alchemy lab.  Ad nauseum forward 300 years and you've got your level 5 chem lab which lets you build gunpowder of known quality.

The problem with tech levels, from a gameplay perspective, is either you are psychically planning to get them, and playing towards getting them (as opposed to playing the game as it is set), or you take so long to get to them that the advance gets lost in the shuffle.  (Imagine 300 years of game time...)  Oh yeah, and having to store the quality of the metal (Masterwork Steel Bars?!?)  There's already a reasonable amount of this present (setting up your 'industries' before you've discovered the ores and whatnot)

I've long wanted to play the '30 people get dropped off on the planet and have to tech their way up to a full civilization' game, but this isn't really the venue for it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sinfang:
<STRONG>To care for my wounded, I've begun setting dwarfs on nothing but health care, to ensure no one starves to death. But what if it was an actual skill that dwarfs could gain experience in?  something that could speed healing or allow for the treatment of otherwise crippling wounds.

considering the general level of dwarftech available, it seems like they should be able to do more then just dump the wounded in bed and bring them food once in a while.</STRONG>

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Does anyone know if healthcare tasks pay?

Also, I've got a dwarf set as a nursemaid, but he's rarely the one to do the bringing of food and water.  (Although until I had him, I had lots of dwarves dying of it, so maybe he's doing it when I'm not looking).

I'm worried about this guy not getting enough money to live off of.

That's JUST what we need... More ways for the dwarves to piss each other off.

lmao, that's hilarious actually, I can see the fortress going all The Sims with dwarves spending all day running around yelling at each other.

Urist McCrafter cancels Make Useless Trinket:  Going to yell at Noble
Urist McCrafter has been sentenced by a noble
Urist McCrafter has been struck down

It would certainly go some distance towards improving my perception of dwarves as having the innate advantage in terms of lifestyle.

•   Morality

The basic point here is to figure out what's going on in the world in terms of religion and morality.  In order to figure out how things are supposed to work in the world in terms of religion and alignment, I had a few questions, theoretically targetted at Toady, about how mysticism and alignment should actually work in his world.  The two basic questions are does 'Nature or Nuture determine alignment' and 'How active of a part do you expect deities to play in the world.'

Is Alignment an intuitive quality?  Are dwarves inherently ‘good’?  Are goblins inherently ‘bad’.  Sure there are baby snatchers that raise people to have a different parent civ, and thus behaviors, but is that appropriate?  Should there be raws elements that handle the innate alignment of races?  Again, Is the alignment of a being a quality based on his being, or his upbringing?  Nature or Nurture?

Should beings feel innate loyalty to their own race?
•   Unhappy thought for being of a hated race… Self Loathing.  Elves suck, and I am an elf.  Why can’t I be as cool as the goblins around me?

•   Handle alignment differences between civs, leaders and individuals.
o   How does the game handle an evil leader in a basically good kingdom?
o   An evil citizen?
o   A good leader in an evil kingdom?  I keep thinking back to all the instances of an elf becoming leader of a goblin camp.  If elves are good by nature and being raised by goblins can't change that, the elf shouldn't be able to maintain control without a revolt for being unsuitable.
o   Will a good leader and an innately good populace start to pull the civ towards good?  I'm thinking about the dominated elf populace ruled by an elf situation.

What are the chances that an elf raised by goblins will be repulsed and think that those around him are vile?  Conversely, that he will convert entirely.  This is another form of the nature or nuture question.
o   Can a goblin ever be civilized?  Can he be made into a 'good' creature?
•   Basically, What’s your desired direction, nature or nurture?  (This is a different worldview than the real world.  It’s possible to have ‘all goblins are inherently evil’ in a way that it’s not possible (rather, not PC) to have in the real world)

Deities currently only quasi exist.  Do you envision religious entities (Clerics, Gods, Demigods) taking a D&D-esque role in DF?  

•   Deities are like Megabeasts, I imagine
o   After a worshipped megabeasts death, should it be reincarnated as a deity?
o   Converted to a deity when there are enough worshipers?

•   Do deities have real power
o   Can a deity tangibly reward his followers?

•   Do deities have real presence
o   Can a deity reveal himself to a potential follower?  AKA instaconvert the elf that was kidnapped young.  Think Moses in Egypt here, especially if revolts are possible.  After a hundred years of domination Panseyass Treehugger the Elven goddess of Namby, Pamby, and Woodcraft reveals herself to Limrist the Effeminate, who proceeds to reveal her glory to the rest of the subjegated populace.  With her aid (good way to support failing civs is to have their deities become more active), they overthrow their goblin overlords and escape into the woods.  (Hell, go balls to the wall, the great briar wall opens, taking the elves into the forest mother's womb)... Where they procede to sack a human city because Panseyass tells them it's theirs now. (sorry for the excessive biblical references there)

•   Is religion a sham?
o   Is it nothing more than a talking head and power hungry theocrats?  Even better, is this something that can change by the age you are in?  Early on the gods have a lot of power, but as things settle down, they get more and more locked out.

•   Conversion
o   Shouldn’t cultures attempt to convert others as part of the cultural conversion process?

o   Religious war, and entity/pantheon relationships
•   Deity power by follower prevalence?
o   Should a deity get stronger the more followers it has?

o   What is the (intangibles) effect of worship on a being
   Sun Kings and other God-People
•   Will worshipping a thing give it extra power?  Should people be eligible for this?
•   Ancestor Spirits, Ghosts and the Spirit world.
o   Ok, that’s enough, or rather, too much...

Sorry for the brain dump, but it's getting late for me and I wanted to get this up

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Originally posted by Jamuk:
<STRONG>Militia is military not police.  Maybe it could be made so that a certain number of your fortress gaurds are on policing duty at a certain time, instead of having them all act like police all of the time.  Anyway, it would at least make them useful, fortress guard should be able to stop theives and stuff, that's their job.  If they aren't at somewhere useful they'll never be much help.

Maybe seperating "police" from "fortress guards" would be useful.  A guard should have the duty of watching for invasions and protecting entrances, and police would walk through the fortress giving happy safe thoughts to people.

[ June 11, 2008: Message edited by: Jamuk ]</STRONG>

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DF requires a lot of police (15% of your manpower!?!) for the level of crime in a dwarven community.  (U.S. is .2% of the manpower)

I'd be happy if the Guards obeyed the 'soldiers outside' restriction, and acted like a civilian militia/national guard.  That way I could at least ensure that they didn't rush out in ones and two past my carefully planned military line.