Bay 12 Games Forum

Plants feeling pain? I feel like nobody should even have to argue against that.
Pain is a specific neurological response.

Neurological.

Plants don't have neurology. They cannot, by definition, have pain, or thought.
Why is this difficult for anyone to comprehend?

Also, what sort of evolutionary impetus (or even advantage) would a plant have to know it's in danger? It doesn't help the plant. The plant can't even move or otherwise react to defend itself. Sure, carnivorous plants will respond to things by making simple movements sometimes, but that's based on other, relatively simple mechanisms (trigger hairs and such).

If you're using layers, there's almost no point to using an isometric perspective in the first place. And even then, you have to worry about stuff like occlusion.

We've just had way too many threads about this, and the problems related to the idea have been rehashed enough times. And that image doesn't help, particularly with how dishonest/flawed it is in its representation.

Yeah, and of course there's the opposite, which is using sparring weapons instead of *Adamantine Short Sword*s. Granted, with whatever sparring changes might be coming, this might be less of a big deal, but I'd like to see that covered by a broader solution to weapon and armor handling for squads/units.

This seems like a far too tiny, nitpicking sort of realism-related suggestion to ever be implemented within our lifetimes, especially considering the fact that it would be rather annoying with no real payoff. I mean, we're talking a game where you can smelt ores without carbon, can dig through solid platinum and granite with picks made out of silver and copper, breed mules, fit a bronze colossus through a single-dwarf-accessible doorway, and burn as much wood as you want in a locked room underground without ever having to worry about oxygen supply. Oh, and you can grow wheat underground, on rocks, with no source of external energy whatsoever.

I somehow don't think that a complicated (yet small in effect) change such as this is going to see much priority compared to any other issues with realism that the game has. Also, it wouldn't be very fun.

"Everything"? That's stretching it a bit. A lot of a bit.

As a former diver I can say this: a properly executed dive or jackknife into the water will make you descend (unarrested) about 3-4 times further than you fell.  If you arrest the dive, you can do it safely in less than 20 feet of water from fairly good heights (40 foot drop).

This doesn't matter because you're essentially falling null distance.

The original post claims that he starts directly above the z-level containing water. If the z-level directly below his starting position is FULL (7/7), then the water is AT HIS FEET at the start. As in, if frozen there would be a floor he could walk on.

It's like getting hurt by jumping into a completely-full pool, from the poolside.

I have a save somewhere from the time while I was preparing to initiate the collapse.

I'm not home right now, but I will be tomorrow night, at which point I'll try to finish constructing the device in that save, make sure the results replicate, and upload a convenient save where you can just dig out the one remaining support tile and collapse the structure.

I don't have time to upload the save right now, but here's the gist of it:

Part of my map is a glacier; obviously, it's all frozen. It has two z-levels of ice.

I tried collapsing the ice to produce water. This is how:
Level 0 (glacier surface):
=========
=       =
= ===== =
= ===== =
^ ===== ^
= ===== =
= ===== =
=       =
========== is ice floor (the glacial surface). Note the chunk in the middle has a perimeter dug out around it, so it can be collapsed. ^ are upward stairs (see next layer).

Level +1 (one above glacier surface):

 +++++++
 +     +
 +     +
v+     +v
 +     +
 +     +
 +++++++

+ is floors, built as scaffolding above the perimeter hole to block sunlight (although I was stupid and built most of it AFTER the perimeter was dug out). v is downward stairs, supporting this floor.

Levels -1 and -2 (ice layers):
*********
*       *
* ***** *
* ***** *
* ***** *
* ***** *
* ***** *
*       *
********** is ice walls. Again, perimeter dug out. Obviously, one tile was left until ready to collapse it entirely.

Level -3 (underneath ice layers):
ooooooooo
o+++++++o
o+++++++o
o+++++++o
o+++++++o
o+++++++o
o+++++++o
o+++++++o
oooooooooo are walls of various sorts and + is the natural floor here. This is the area for the ice to collapse into.


Now, those diagrams aren't COMPLETELY exact; I especially left off some access stairway or two, for instance. You'll see more when I upload the save.

Anyway, so I collapse this ice, and what did I get? One of the layers collapsed normally, I THINK, to some degree (it was slightly messy), which hilariously destroyed the floor of Level -3, resulting in microcline-colored "open space" where the floor was, with microcline walls being below on Level -4. Please note that this means the ice did not fall all the way down! I'm pretty sure some of it did, but damn near a whole layer stayed on -2.

But here's the hilarious bit: Level -1 had almost NO ICE WALLS AT ALL. Maybe one or two squares connected to the ones below?

So where did it go?
Easy.


Level +1 (one above glacier surface):

 +++++++
 +=====+
 +=====+
v+=====+v
 +=====+
 +=====+
 +++++++

Level 0 (glacier surface):
=========
=       =
= ***** =
= ***** =
^ ***** ^
= ***** =
= ***** =
=       =
=========


That's right. An entire layer of ice managed to jump UP and latch onto the scaffolding above. This diagram may also be slightly inaccurate; I think a few bits of ice were off to the sides of the main block too, in the perimeter area. Maybe.

My only possible explanation is that the solid ice didn't really move much or at all; rather, it turned into mist, which then resolidified, and mist liking to travel upwards, a lot of ice wound up getting higher than it was before.