Bay 12 Games Forum

One thing about inalienable rights is that in order for them to be rendered void you should have definite proof of guilt of some serious crime

You can't just use "Well, he's a terrorist!" as an excuse to blow up/imprison indefinitely/otherwise abridge the rights of somebody suspected of being a terrorist

And even if you do arrest a known terrorist they still have right to legal counsel and habeas corpus and not to be tortured among other things

Those standards are what set enlightened civilization apart from the barbarism of the past.

I never expressed agreement with Yisrael Beitenu's sick plan of ethnic cleansing of Israeli citizens.  I suggested the repatriation of Palestinians to their home countries, with territory ceded as necessary to make it happen. 

My mistake. I momentarily confused their stance with the stance of OTHER extreme right wing parties in Israel who you do agree with.

In any case, Palestinians' home country is Palestine, meaning Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip. "Repatriating" them (forcing them to move to other countries) would be ethnic cleansing.

The Lieberman Plan that you say is "more reasonable" (presumably moreso than the Three-State Solution I happen to support)

1. It's more reasonable than "repatriating" Palestinians to other countries, since the only Palestinians that need repatriating are the refugees OUTSIDE Israel/Palestine.

2. Three-state solution? I can't wait to hear this.

I can only guess at why you think it's such a great plan, but it's just as bigoted to see Arab Israelis as needing to be "saved" from the presumably evil Jewish majority as it is for Jewish radicals to want to expel Arab or Muslim citizens of Israel.

I don't think it's a great plan at all. It's just better than the alternatives advocated for by a bunch of their fellow right-wingers, because it actually involves Israel allowing a viable Palestinian state to exist, as opposed to the gutted and completely unworkable one that would exist if the areas of the West Bank currently under Palestinian control were to be turned into a state and the rest remained under de-facto Israeli control.

As for why Palestinian Israelis are happy to live in Israel - you're right that they have it a hell of a lot better than their countrymen in the West Bank, not least for the obvious reason that they don't live under constant martial law, they have a vote in the government that is over them, and they actually have legal rights and aren't subject to being held without charge, killed for being suspected of crimes, etc.

They have ALMOST all the rights of Jewish Israelis, the exception being that they do not have the right to have their family reunited in their own homeland. A Jewish Holocaust survivor in 1949 could have come to Israel and shortly thereafter, found out that his family, who he'd been separated from, was living in Poland, and his family could come to Israel, be given citizenship, and live there happily. A Palestinian citizen of Israel whose family has been in a refugee camp in Jordan since 1948 does not have the right to have his family reunited. One difference, but it IS a difference, and it makes the statement that Arab Israelis have all the rights of Jewish Israelis to be untrue as an absolute statement.

Then of course you have how it works in practice - one big thing is that practically all the land in Israel is controlled by the state and is technically leased out to its owners/users. Arab Israelis have a much harder time getting land for development or agricultural than do Jewish Israelis. There are other forms of discrimination too but that's the big one.

Still, they are of course glad not to be living in Hebron or Nablus, for obvious reasons

Whether a few individual intelligent person decides one career over another doesn't really matter when we're looking at hundreds of millions or billions.  How many brilliant janitors do you know of?  How many stupid engineers do you know? 

Huh? I'm saying you're not going to be able to easily sort people into career path or income level by intelligence. There are plenty of jobs that are fairly low-profile and don't generate above-average income, which many intelligent people choose, for many reasons. Also, how intelligent do you have to be to be a football MVP or a pop star?

And sure, you have to be intelligent to some certain level to be a doctor, but intelligence is hardly a necessary and sufficient cause of being a doctor. At a certain point sheer dedication counts more than, say, the ability to fluently discuss intricate philosophical conundrums, or whatever other intelligence-related abilities you could name.

Why do you keep saying "terrorist" like it means "non-person?"

Almost all terrorists are that for some reason, whether it's good or not. Nobody just decides to start blowing up civilians for no reason. Their cause may or may not be a good one, and their actions may be evil, but it's retarded to use the word "terrorist" as some label that you can apply to instantly void the concept of inalienable human rights to whoever you want.

It's especially egregious to use that tactic on people who are taking up arms against a foreign country that's occupying theirs, as if most people on earth wouldn't do the same.

Just saying.

Quote from: Jude on April 07, 2010, 07:56:21 pm

Oh my FUCK was it hot today

I hate humidity.

No kidding.
It's even worse when it rains really hard and then stops all of a sudden and becomes sunny.

I actually kind of like that. It might be a little muggy, but it's still a lot better than the constant sun-beating-down-and-it-still-feels-like-Nam heat you get all along the East Coast in the summer. Much less the deep South, which I've heard is way, way worse.

Oh my FUCK was it hot today

I hate humidity.

Quote

your beloved Waffen SS brigade

Paging Mike Godwin ... the only people to attach the word "beloved" to the Waffen SS are you and the Palestinians.  And they, unfortunately, do not mean it ironically.

Out of your whole asisine wall of text, I'll just quote this as a shining example of how ridiculous you've become. You keep bringing up Godwin's law as if I'm the one who's proving it, but at the same time you keep trying to paint an entire ethnic group as Nazis because of something a couple of them did 60 years ago? And that doesn't seem ironic to you?

Other than that, there were so few true statements in your post that why bother?

FYI, Jude, you're currently losing this debate on the basis of tactics. You're attempting to discredit your opponent without producing anything other than obscure generalizations and arbitrary statements, while Forumsdwarf is presenting a logical argument. Either you need to refute his actual points, or you need to provide some credence to your attempt to discredit him by referencing and linking some reliable source material.

Debate by discrediting and debasing your opponent adds nothing to the discussion, and ultimately fails to achieve anything in the face of a competent opponent who actually presents a reasoned argument. As I've said before, I personally dislike your style of debate. However, if you want to win with it (rather than by refuting your opponent's actual points of argument), you need to back up your claims of falsified information and idiocy on the part of your opponent.

It would take nothing but about fifteen minutes on wikipedia to discredit everything he's been saying, since it's basically all blatant lies. However, this is an internet argument, and I don't care enough. If anyone is actually curious about the history of Palestine, I'd be happy to discuss it with them and direct you to good reading materials on it, but Forumsdwarf isn't.

In any case, this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_war contains basic information backing up everything I've said (or links to other wiki pages that have that info), and shows that just about everything he's been saying has been lies, propaganda and the like. Help yourself! Also feel free to ask me questions if you want to learn. Unlike this other guy, I know a good deal about it, from having heard the bullshit Palestinian version, the bullshit Israeli version, more balanced versions of each, and of course read/studied plenty about it and I'm happy to answer questions, since God knows more people need to know about what's going on over there

Quote from: Pandarsenic on April 05, 2010, 03:24:41 am

> Use PENIS on BELLA

Error: PENIS not found

c'mon....we all know he doesn't have one.

My favorite vampire story was "Vampire$" by John Steakley. Those vampires are the polar opposite of any romantic pretty-boy vampire. They're total demonic monsters. Also, their dicks don't work, just to add insult to injury.