Bay 12 Games Forum

In my experience, it's the exact opposite for many people. Creating a character... removes them from the world, in a way. They aren't taking on a role that already exists in a world, with connections and immersive potential, they are pushing some idealized version of themselves into this alien world.

That's what I'm saying - if there IS a character creation (and we are talking about a RPG), it makes sense you are not there to fit pre-existing role (not talking about role STORY-wise), but make your role fit the world, if that makes more sense.
If the player is doing that just by projecting himself in the world but stronger, well, it is my very personal opinion that that's kinda missing the point of role-playing. Trying to be something completely different instead of just stronger you is fun! But that's strictly just personal preference. 

The TES games have always intentionally been about that, of course - it's part of their narrative, that you're the unnamed outsider entering this alien world, and building a character from scratch reinforces that - it breaks you out of the roleplaying and makes the game, intentionally, more sandboxy, by giving you more freedom to ignore your role completely. (See: The number of people who never even bother to complete the main quest, or who ignore it for large chunks of the game)

...or take the role-playing to a relatively high level. I agree with everything you said here. That's why I gave Oblivion as an example. It has a lot of RP potential the way character mechanics work but...

While a game like Planescape Torment gives you a lot of choices, and actually forces you to take on the role of the Nameless one. There's character customization, but it's not "be anyone you want!" but "express this role the way you see fit!" which seem, to me, two very different design choices.

...but lacks this. You can be anything you want, but there's just no way to leave a mark in the world with your role.

Which in turn leads me to this:

If it had no sort of player-choice-driven character development at all beyond the initial character creation, I'm not convinced anyone would buy it being "an rpg".

As I mentioned, I can think of a number of games that allow you to do this, but I can't think of any that most people would be willing to qualify as RPGs.

Even if it's not mechanical leveling and progression, there's gotta be something, or you're gonna have trouble convincing people you belong in the RPG genre, as far as I can tell. Counter-examples welcome.

That's why I gave Oblivion as an example. I personally don't consider it to be RPG, but last time I checked, it was hailed as "one of the best RPGs of the last 10 years" or some such nonsense.

My prime gripe was always "meaningful choices" when I think about RPG. I really hope that clears things up a bit. Seeing how it was ME that opened the can of worms that is Oblivion, I feel kinda obliged to try to calm things down a bit. 

I'd like to think that character creation should be significant part in away so that YOU, the player, would feel connected to that character and pretend to be him/her/it. And so you role-play that character.

The more character creation is limited, the greater care should be given to other game elements, IMHO. At least if we are talking RPG.

I'll take Baldur's Gate and Oblivion again - first has rigid class system with predefined skills you get with leveling up and you do so with gaining magical numerical units called exp. Second let's you customize your class, level up whichever ability you wish anytime you want, you are limited only by YOUR self-imposed RP limits.
In one of this games, it does makes a difference how you play it (what kind of choices you make), in the other the world just doesn't care.

Wooo, this sounds like super fun thing!
Made account, here I am. And it's 22.00 here, just the right time to start with the party.

Everything is an instrument if you hit it the right way.

You...you are a beautiful person. ;__;

I might as well finally change my sigg.

Well, BBC decided to end it's live coverage 17 minutes ago, for whatever reasons...though watching the livestream, things seem more calm compared to yesterday.

Tehehe, reading about late 19th/early 20th century "bayonet reach" problem makes me giggle.

There's just something about imagining old, grey haired generals sporting Franz-Joseph mustache and a monocle going "What? The French put an epee on their rifles?! Well, we better make our barrels longer then!"

Ah, those gay 1900s.

There's also Corneroids - thruster placing, their strength and overall mass is the crucial thing you need to master if you wish to fly any ship in that game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting
Aka real life UnRealWorld.

Ah, that I am aware of. "Outrun" is a rather broad therm so I was really wondering under what conditions could a man outrun a dog.
Though sled dogs come to mind when we talk about marathon too so there's that.

*psssst*

I actually saw his first post on this page BEFORE he quoted it. Truth.