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Messages - Soadreqm

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226
The trope can't be separated from it's social context because its social context is largely created by its use, especially when looking entirely within the media. Using a damsel in distress in a video game is playing off the history and abundance of the trope. It's a shorthand that gamers will understand from the dozens of other games they have played where it's used. The individual use of the trope is shaped by the history of the trope and you can't entirely separate any single usage from the past examples.

For those who have read Dawkins, think of it as an extended phenotype. Animals shape the environment they live in even as that environment shapes the species' evolution. In the case of stories the use of tropes shape the future perceptions of those same tropes, which then change how those tropes are used, and so on ad nauseum.

Problematic tropes come about due to those social interactions with the central premise. They can stop being problematic (or become less problematic, or more) depending on how those interactions change. In the same way that beaver evolution might be shaped by how generation after generation shape their own environment with dams, the use of tropes will shape the future nature of the tropes.

The central element of the damsel in distress trope that makes it problematic in the current social context is the woman being denied agency. This is problematic due to both the general lack of female characters who have agency - or who have their agency stripped away by such tropes - in video games and the general cultural attitude that is hostile towards women who demonstrate agency in the real world.

Sure, these things are changing. The recent freak out over female bread winners had a bigger backlash against the freak out. But they are still there and underlie both the games industry and society in general.

The two parts feed off of each other. Narratives where women are assumed to be passive and dependent are more popular when they re-enforce assumptions already present in the wider world, while general attitudes are (at least partially) shaped by the narratives we use to describe and address the world around us. Making certain narratives the default or making certain narratives taboo/off limits can shift how people look at the world.

Today the assumptions about women's place in the world and general lack of female agency in common narratives are pervasive. Any re-enforcement of those assumptions and trends is problematic. It's not to say it should never be done, but doing so should be done with full awareness of what you are doing. And that means that people who are aware of the problems should talk about the problems and point them out where they see them. Which is what Anita is doing.

You seem to be saying that damsel-in-distress plots work by referencing other damsel-in-distress plots to let the player know what's going on. I believe this is incorrect. The plots might reference each other, but that's not the only thing they have going. While the trope might certainly be overused, it is also an entirely legitimate plot device that can stand on its own.

To clarify, you don't need to know the previous examples to understand the plot. That's kind of what references are about; you are building off a whole lot of prior stuff, and need that prior stuff to deliver your message. But with distressed damsels, you could find yourself a kid who's never played a video game, watched TV or perused any work of fiction at all, tell him that "The princess has been kidnapped! Are you a bad enough dude to rescue the princess?" and he would get it. He doesn't need to know how many times before the same story has been told. Kidnapping is bad and rescuing is good and that is why you need to stomp on those goombas. Once you accept that abducting a person without a pressing reason is morally questionable, the whole rest of the plot follows. It only became a "trope" in the first place because it works.

As to whether the narratives in video games affect how people percieve the real world, I don't know. Maybe? I don't think it's a problem as long as there are other kind of narratives as well. Men sometimes lose their agency, a phrase I refuse to use without italics, but other times they're single-handedly changing the fate of entire worlds. Get some more female protagonists going.

I think it's more obvious with the Euthanized Damsel trope, where games are playing directly into common domestic violence narratives. They are re-enforcing the stories told where women are deserving of the harm done to them. The stories that are already present and pervasive in our society, but that doesn't mean that repeating them and increasing their visibility uncritically isn't harmful. Can such events have a place in good stories? Sure. But a part of that would require being aware of the danger surrounding those narratives and addressing that in some manner in the story. Otherwise it's just a repetition of a narrative that we should be discrediting and marginalising for the harm it does.

Are they really domestic violence narratives? I don't think they are. You're not hitting a woman because she's annoying, you're hitting her because she's an enemy. That's what you do with enemies. You kill them. This might be perceived as a problem, I guess, but it's certainly not a gender problem. In any game, you're usually killing enemies by the hundreds. In the real world, they would be people. If it's okay to kill them, what's wrong with gunning down a brainwashed girlfriend every now and then? It's not as if any of them really deserve death. ::)

227
Other Games / Re: The Alpha Centauri (SMAC/SMAX) thread
« on: June 05, 2013, 08:57:25 am »
Well, once you accept that "Aki" wasn't her birth name, everything becomes simple. Her last name certainly wasn't "Zeta-5". :D

GlypthGryph, if by "backstory" you mean the "Journey to Centauri" short story, not even the intro video supports that. A reactor malfunction damages the Unity, precipitating a crisis among the ship's seven most powerful leaders. Then, after Captain Garland is assassinated, the crew mutinies and starts commandeering landing pods. In the short story, it's an impact with a small speck of space debris, people start fighting over the pods WAY before Garland actually bites it, and Yang has psychic powers. I don't think it's actually canon or anything.

228
She didn't actually say fictional violence against women was fostering anything in the real world

[...]

The point of the video is not that violence against women is in fiction is inherently bad at all, but that it's treated differently than violence against men.  Men recover, and come back stronger.  Women get killed off or crippled solely to encourage male heroes to seek vengeance.

She implies it pretty heavily though. The way I interpreted the video, the point IS that violence against women is inherently bad. It is a downright terrible point, but that's what she seemed to be saying. Eh, I blame Anita for being bad at bringing her points across.

As to men recovering and coming back stronger, and women dying, I could provide some counterexamples. Boromir dies. Rufio dies. Dumbledore dies, along with many other people. Assuming that becoming a ghost does not count as "coming back stronger", Hamlet's dad dies, as does Obi-Wan Kenobi. For video game examples, your brother can die in Deus Ex 1 unless you save him. Mercury in Mirror's Edge is killed off near the end. Khalid is killed between Baldur's Gate 1 and 2. I think it's more protagonist recovers, NPCs die. Which, I suppose, is somewhat weighted against women, since the majority of protagonists are men.

Quote
Is it offensive for a book/movie/game where white people volunteer for and enjoy enslavement?
No, it is understanding what a slave is. A slave is someone who lacks a certain aspect of their autonomy. Someone who is treated well or who suffers from Stockholm syndrome could easily enjoy their enslavement. As well there is lots of fiction with volunteer enslavement and it even occurred in real life.

I think it kinda depends on how it's handled. If you have a whole slave race being all "being a slave is so cool! I'd hate to have to make decisions", and this is presented as completely fine and wholesome, with slavery being their natural place, a lot of people probably aren't going to like it. That isn't really a message that modern audiences are going to agree with. Stockholm Syndrome is usually presented differently; the audience isn't expected to accept the situation. It's not a good thing that someone has Stockholm Syndrome.

Ok ok lets put it this way.

The problem with some tropes is that they cannot be used without paying attention to the sensitivity of the material. While there are even abused wives who were happy even in their own marriage and weren't simply deluded, for example, it is important that when used not to give the impression that you are excusing spousal abuse or making this happiness seem normal.

Often you have to treat the material with the weight it carries.

Oh, I guess you already said the same thing. Never mind. :P

229
Other Games / Re: The Alpha Centauri (SMAC/SMAX) thread
« on: June 05, 2013, 02:09:56 am »
Maybe she had Finnish parents? Maybe in the future Scandinavia gets lax on immigration so people from Finland can move to Norway.
A truly terrifying vision of the future. :P Yeah, being called "Annikki Luttinen" In Norway isn't impossible, just statistically unlikely. A girl being called "Aki" is pretty weird, but also not impossible, especially a few decades to the future. Naming conventions change, sometimes quite rapidly. I still like "Annikki" better, though.

Hey, when did it have the expansion? When I bought it, it didn't come with it, although it looks like I could re-download it to get it(but I don't really want to right now).

It had the expansion when I bought it a couple months ago. You should probably get it. The expansions adds not only new factions and facilities, but also bugfixes.

230
Other Games / Re: The Alpha Centauri (SMAC/SMAX) thread
« on: June 04, 2013, 05:38:10 pm »
Aki Zeta-5 Luttinen was born in Norway (which is misleading, since she has a finnish surname), and was a "Subroutine Specialist" under the Unity Science Officer (Zakharov).

Also, "Aki" is a boy's name. Apparently, the SMAC GURPS sourcebook gives her name as "Annikki Luttinen", but offers no explanation as to why she had a Finnish name in Norway.

231
Once again again, tropes do not exist in a vacuum. They are their use in various media and the interactions between the stories and society. You can't divorce them from that.

Could you explain something for me? You're saying that a trope's usage is an inherent part of the trope; that the "Damsel In Distress" trope is not only about distressed damsels, but also requires that damsels be in distress in like every other work. (This IS what you are saying, yes?) Does this imply that if the trope was used without the cultural framework, it is not actually the trope? If a game in which a lady gets into a pickle and must be rescued by the protagonist was made in a society where this was not particularly prevalent, would this count as an instance of the trope? If the trope became less popular, would it in fact cease to exist, being replaced by a different trope about women in peril but only occasionally? What would you call such a trope?


232
Other Games / Re: The Alpha Centauri (SMAC/SMAX) thread
« on: June 04, 2013, 02:33:31 am »
Well if your basing Zakharov's personality off of the quotes, I agree, but you have to remember, he was basically slowly becoming insane towards the end, and he didn't really believe the drones mattered, more-so the pursuit of pure discovery.(Canon of course)

I didn't get insane, really. He kind of flips out after the Lab Three Incident, but calms down in time to provide the quote for Voice of Planet.

233
Could you medicate homosexuality?
Yes, exactly! :D Maybe there wouldn't be a large market for changing your sexual preferences at will, but I'm sure some would do it. Either to conform to what society expects of them, or actively rebel against it.

To the idea that sexual attraction itself is a social construct, i just say "pfft" to such absolutist theories. The theory makes no scientific sense whatsoever - considering that we are descended from animals, we are still animals, and all the things people are predominantly attracted to aid in the biological survival, or are indicators of sexual maturity. If there's one thing that can be clearly said to have an explanation in the realm of evolutionary psychology (regardless of how the specifics work out), it's sexual attraction. Any other species, if you were to say sexual attraction was a social construct, you'd be laughed out of town. Just because it's politically correct doesn't make it scientifically correct for our species. We should apply the same rigor and objectivity to studying our own species that we do to others, without sociopolitical baggage coloring our findings.

Well, according to Harry Harlow's monkey torture experiments, rhesus macaques grown in complete isolation are too emotionally broken to have sex. It was hardly an exhaustive study, and only tangentially related to what we are talking about, but it showed that at least for rhesus macaques, social contact is kind of a big deal, and they can't really become functioning rhesus macaques without it. >:]

Neonivek: What are these "Equality Olympics" you keep alluding to?

234
Other Games / Re: The Alpha Centauri (SMAC/SMAX) thread
« on: June 03, 2013, 03:38:43 pm »
I've kind of started disliking Zakharov recently and I think I just figured out why. The way I see him, he's kind of lacking in the kind of integrity all the other faction leaders have. He seems to be all about founding a society on science, but at the same time, he's not really making a serious effort to educate his own drones. Lal's followers have way higher average education. It's like Zakharov doesn't really care about knowledge as a social cause, and is just pursuing knowledge for his own ends. Well, that's not really fair. Let's call it knowledge for its own sake. Which is cool and all, but kind of makes me feel that perhaps he shouldn't be the one ruling all of Planet. :P

Like, basically everyone but Zakharov and Morgan (ignoring Alien Crossfire) is committed to preventing a repeat of Earth in their own way. Those two just want to play around on a new planet with no governmental oversight. And Morgan gets a free pass since he's kind of supposed to be unscrupulous.

235
This talk about what people find sexually attractive has got me thinking about what actually causes that. Is it purely biological? There's some serious variance inside the two groups, so it's clearly not just a "Have Y chromosome? Breasts are THE BEST THING" toggle switch. Could you medicate it? And if it's more a societal thing, how would you even go about learning something like that? Just watching what other people are fawning over? I'm sure there must be psychologists who've studied this, but I don't know any. :\

236
Other Games / Re: The Alpha Centauri (SMAC/SMAX) thread
« on: June 03, 2013, 10:52:26 am »
I haven't actually tried all the factions yet, but so far my favourite's been Gaia's Stepdaughters. Mind worms kick ass! :D Personality-wise, my favourite faction leader is Roze.

237
DF Suggestions / Re: Construction Cranes
« on: June 02, 2013, 02:56:26 pm »
There's a big article on the subject here, which was possibly linked in an earlier thread on this topic.

http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2010/03/history-of-human-powered-cranes.html

tl:dr: They had some damn good human-powered cranes long before the 1400s, powered via treadwheels.

That's pretty cool. :)

238
Other Games / Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« on: June 02, 2013, 02:19:11 pm »
I am not a superstitious man

You are now! :D

239
DF Suggestions / Re: Another take on Magic - Magicmaker style
« on: June 02, 2013, 04:58:10 am »
Quote
Are you arguing that alchemy was NOT extremely dangerous

I am arguing that adding sulfur to water doesn't blow you up. I am asking only for people to remember that there were safe avenues for chemistry.

The problem there is that you don't know what the safe avenues are until you've tried. Alchemists had way less prior experience to build on than modern chemists. These days, you can just look at how many outer electrons two elements have, and make predictions about how they're going to react without even trying. And if someone else had tried the experiment before, he's definitely published the results, and his papers should clearly outline exactly what he did and how violent the explosions were. Not so before chemistry became a science. Alchemists didn't know about electrons, so they were limited to wild guessing to determine the outcome of a reaction. They still had works written by other alchemists, of course, but before the printing press, books were expensive and difficult to find. And a lot of alchemists wrote in vague spiritual metaphors. And some of the alchemists were using the chemicals as a metaphor for a personal journey to spiritual enlightenment or whatever. The scientific method really made everything better.

On the flipside, they didn't have access to some of the more dangerous things modern chemists get killed by, because they were too difficult to make. Elemental fluorine, for instance.

Applying this to fantasy alchemy, I guess it all comes back to availability again. If alchemy is commonplace, they've probably worked out a lot of the kinks, and established a whole bunch of safe things you can do. You can still get yourself killed by being careless and not washing your beakers properly, but that's your own fault and not alchemy's. And research on the CUTTING EDGE, doing experiments no one has ever done before, is still incredibly risky. By contrast, if alchemy is only practiced by a few crazy people living alone in the wilderness, all research is cutting edge all the time.

240
DF Suggestions / Re: Construction Cranes
« on: June 01, 2013, 12:11:48 pm »
Something like this could certainly streamline building construction. I'm not sure how well it fits the tech level, though. Did they have cranes like that in medieval times? It certainly isn't anything you couldn't build with nothing but wood and rope and determination.

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