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136
Tilesets and Graphics / Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« on: February 01, 2016, 12:24:30 pm »
Quote from: Quiet-Sun on February 01, 2016, 11:36:01 am
Thank you Burned!  I found the problem!  Graphics deffinition txts need to start with the string "graphics_"  so instead of "creature_suberranean_graphics.txt",  I had to use "graphics_creature_subterranean.txt"  ::)

You're right. I failed to catch that.


Quote from: Quiet-Sun on February 01, 2016, 11:36:01 am
You see some of the old files, but that is because I need to keep beastmen and major races.  I made absolutely sure there were no duplicate entries.   

I see. I originally didn't understand why they were mixed; I made the mistake of thinking all the old files were present.
Why not test them without the old files to avoid errors that are not coming from your script?



Quote from: Quiet-Sun on February 01, 2016, 11:36:01 am
Now I have a bug where dogs look like cows, but that is much easier to fix. I'll upload the correct files later today, but I'm stoked to see it work!  I think we will have the standard ready very soon!

I don't see the dog/cow error, but it's possible you mean in the files post first attempt.

I look forward to your progress.


137
Tilesets and Graphics / Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« on: February 01, 2016, 07:04:19 am »
Quote from: Quiet-Sun on February 01, 2016, 04:17:40 am
Could you please look at these sets to see if there are obvious problems to you?

Based on the structure and text files I can tell you what I see offhand.

1. The definition text file is named creature_whatever_graphics.txt, but it's defined as creature_whatever.
2. The old definition files are present which means if you correct 1. you will then have everything from Adder to Yak defined twice, each calling different image files since both old and new images are present.
3. If you get rid of the old definition files and old images, you have defined everything that is not in the set as a red tile (This includes the wagon since it's techinically a creature).



Quote from: Quiet-Sun on January 31, 2016, 06:19:33 pm
Thank you Burned! this would be very helpful. Can you please send me one without outdated professions?  We can assume your list is complete and improve it if need be.


The complete list that I've cobbled together is available right now if you want it (see below spoiler), but they are organized by professions not by used, outdated, etc. I did make some quick notes for your reference if you want to organize them differently.


Notes on notes:

"Not sure" means I feel I've seen them in game, but can't recall at the moment.
"Never verified" means I've actively tried to verify these and have never seen them in game.
I believe CHIEF_MEDICAL_DWARF works for any race, but not all professions listed work for every race.
I've noted the ones that I know are specific to a particular race, but I know there are more than I noted.
Some are defined as one thing, but appear in game as another (see elf queen and princess for example).
Law_Enforce is the fortress guard. Tax_Escort was either turned off with the tax collector or is used as the "Royal Guard" - I'm not sure and it's been awhile since I've had a king arrive.

Verification for creatures is easy, since you can spawn them in the arena. For professions you have to play adventurer or dwarf fortress to verify the tiles.

Wait . . . I'm an idiot.

*sends email*

Maybe Toady could just add professions inside the arena?

In any case, the list is below . . .


Spoiler (click to show/hide)






138
Tilesets and Graphics / Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« on: January 31, 2016, 03:42:47 pm »
Quote from: Quiet-Sun on January 31, 2016, 02:22:30 pm
Quote from: burned on January 31, 2016, 12:44:52 pm
I guess the flaw that I see in your current script is that it relies on preexisting definition text files. So if a HIPPO is defined twice or something is misspelled or GIANT_LION is defined as LION_GIANT or the myriad of other possibilities - how does that even work? Also, what's the point if you need a preexisting error free definition text file for the script to work in the first place, you know?

When you say it shouldn't be too difficult I feel as if you're not considering things like professions that exist in game that you can define tiles for that are not in the raws . . . how are you going to pull that off?

No pressure Quiet-Sun. ;]

I should correct myself.  It shouldn't be too difficult to do it for creatures.  Humanoids are a different beast, but I'm not going to worry about them now or I won't make any progress.   As you have said before this is not an easy task, but one that I consider tractable.  I know I'm not going to be able to pull it off in the first try, but that's not a big deal for me.

One thing that you should keep in mind is that we are both defining a standard AND standardizing existing disparaging sets.  At some point or other, something will have to be fixed by a human, but I am convinced that we can do most of the work automatically.   

What I need right now is proactive help and not sarcasm.  Identifying problems is useful and necessary, but your input would be immensely more valuable if you also try to help us find solutions.  Your help (and by you I mean everyone that understands how DF works) is critical for my success.

Quiet-Sun, I was not being sarcastic. I sincerely don't see the point if you need a preexisting error free definition text file.

You're right. Solutions are more helpful than just the problems. But, I do believe sharing the problems I am identifying is worth it so that solutions are sought rather then the problem overlooked. I have no idea at this point what the solution(s) would be. I am sharing it via this thread so that you and others are made aware of what needs to be addressed. Sincerely, I would love for you or someone to pull this off as previously stated. To be absolutely clear, I am rooting for you!


Quote from: Quiet-Sun on January 31, 2016, 02:22:30 pm
HERE ARE SOME THINGS THAT I NEED:

- Does anyone know where in DF's /objects/*.txt files are all the professions (or other variables that may affect tile appearance)?  I want my standardizing scripts for humanoids to be solely based on the files found in DF so that we can update things easily as the game evolve. 

No, they are not all the professions. That was one of the things I was concerned about since there are a lot of professions that are not in ANY of the /objects/*.txt files, hence my sincere question of "how are you going to pull that off?"

I do not see a way that you can cover all professions based on the /objects/*.txt files found in DF.

Quote from: Quiet-Sun on January 31, 2016, 02:22:30 pm
- I see that some races have tons of professions (dwarves), but some seem to have a handful (worm-men).  Where in DF's /objects/*.txt can I find such a difference defined?  Is it just those that are creatures?  How many professions am I dealing with?

I have a complete list I can send you, but it has everything in it - meaning, not just currently used professions, but outdated professions (in case they are implemented again), professions that are mere guesses, and professions I have not been been able to successfully verify, but they are referenced on the wiki and other definition files consistently.


Quote from: CLA on January 31, 2016, 02:31:39 pm
On the other end, the script would take the raws and - based on hardcoded rules - generate another dataset from it (number of creatures and their names, number of texture tokens/professions and their names, resulting dimensions of image files).
You would get a set of creatures with a known coordinate (creature X sits at 2:5, creature Y at 0:0, etc)

Finally, it would create standard creature definition text files and the new, reordered image files.

Thanks CLA, but the above part is where I am lost. So instead of a preexisting definition text you would have to set up the tiles in an image to match the predefined defintion text? Also, do you mean hardcoded rules would be the solution to the professions not found in the any of the raw files? In other words, the script hardcodes all the professions somehow?

139
Tilesets and Graphics / Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« on: January 31, 2016, 12:44:52 pm »
I guess the flaw that I see in your current script is that it relies on preexisting definition text files. So if a HIPPO is defined twice or something is misspelled or GIANT_LION is defined as LION_GIANT or the myriad of other possibilities - how does that even work? Also, what's the point if you need a preexisting error free definition text file for the script to work in the first place, you know?

When you say it shouldn't be too difficult I feel as if you're not considering things like professions that exist in game that you can define tiles for that are not in the raws . . . how are you going to pull that off?

No pressure Quiet-Sun. ;]

140
Tilesets and Graphics / Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« on: January 31, 2016, 12:00:36 pm »
Quote from: CLA on January 31, 2016, 07:03:42 am
How do we deal with AS_IS vs ADD_COLOR?
I totally forgot about the AS_IS versus ADD_COLOR. Thanks.


Quote from: Quiet-Sun on January 31, 2016, 03:30:53 am
The files you are going to look have all been generated by the automatic script (text and all).
&
Quote from: Quiet-Sun on January 31, 2016, 03:30:53 am
The idea is that with each tile uniquely defined, artists can fill the gaps without worrying about the text files.

Standard image organization is great for the repo, but the current problem that exists in the repo are with the definition text files. Organizing the images in each set to match a standard means nothing without updated working definitions. The challenge is the definition text file that syncs with the images you are creating.

Quote from: Quiet-Sun on January 31, 2016, 03:30:53 am
Anyway, you get the idea.

I do get the idea and I'd love to see you or someone pull this off, but all of some of my questions still remain unanswered.

edit: Well, not all of them since you said it would be automated. Heh.

Quote from: Quiet-Sun on January 31, 2016, 03:30:53 am
I don't know how many creatures can become trained.
P.S. Here is a list. I hope that helps.

edit 2: link fixed =X!

141
Tilesets and Graphics / Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« on: January 30, 2016, 12:31:15 pm »
I didn't see anything in your script regarding a standard definition file. It reads as if it goes through the existing image(s) and existing definition file(s) and creates png(s) as far as I can tell. But, maybe I don't understand your script and I'm just missing the part that creates the definition file. But, based on your answers, I think this is really about our terminology. Let me start over to avoid confusion.

How is this standard definition TEXT file being created? I didn't see any in the download.
Is this standard definition TEXT file going to be automated somehow?
If the standard definition TEXT file is automated, does it know NOT to define a creature's tile if it's left blank?
If it's not automated, how are you going to mix and match sets?
How are the professions pulled for the standard races and animal people for the TEXT file?

Sorry if I wasn't clear before. I do understand what you have done. I wanted to know how you are going to tackle the standard definition text file. Based on this comment . . .

Quote from: Quiet-Sun on January 30, 2016, 10:41:35 am
We would provide matrix templates with (names crossing textures/professions with the respective animals/races) in case artists just want to fill them up and not to bother with making the text files.

 . . . you would just "provide matrix templates."

How?

142
Tilesets and Graphics / Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« on: January 30, 2016, 03:49:49 am »
Quote from: Quiet-Sun on January 29, 2016, 11:03:08 pm
Note that some animals are missing in some of the sets (so those tiles are left blank), but now there is a uniquely defined tile for all sets.

What I'm proposing (based on CLA's idea) is that we create a standard set of text files pointing to standard tiles that are exactly the same regardless of the graphics set.   Then, using a more sophisticated version of my script, we populate the png files for each set.   The advantage is that it becomes very easy to mix and match sets and we can very easily update the whole thing if DF adds or removes creatures.

How is this standard definition file being created? I didn't see any in the download.
Is this standard definition file going to be automated somehow?
If the standard definition file is automated, does it know NOT to define a creature's tile if it's left blank?*
If it's not automated, how are you going to mix and match sets?
How are the professions pulled for the standard races and animal people?


*If you define a creature to a transparent tile that's exactly what you'll get in game.

143
Tilesets and Graphics / Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« on: January 29, 2016, 07:40:32 pm »
@Quiet-Sun This may answer a lot of your questions.

144
DF General Discussion / Re: Future of the Fortress
« on: January 29, 2016, 02:25:28 am »
Quote from: FantasticDorf on January 28, 2016, 09:33:56 pm
Quote from: PatrikLundell on January 28, 2016, 09:26:38 am
A theoretical answer to the banner question would be that when/if decorations like show cases, banners, tapestries, red carpets.
Quote from: PatrikLundell on January 28, 2016, 09:26:38 am
red carpets
Quote from: PatrikLundell on January 28, 2016, 09:26:38 am
carpets

Given that I can already envision a production chain (specifically plant thread, which can be intercepted and dyed before arriving, goes to a craftshop where a clothier/sub-crafter type assembles it) carpets as a idea and a use in raising value seems like a logical point of decoration not explored upon within the game.

Does the future hold any *planned* developments where we can make our own non-carved natural wall embellishments such as the subject matter of carpets i mentioned above? ETC - Signage , IE - wooden and metal iconographic signs with different individual decoration rules *via workshop decoration modification*) but essentially work like tag on engravings, or carpets layered over floors detailing events as dictated or nothing at all.

DF Talk #8 around the 1hr and 25min mark:

Toady: [] ... so I'd like to have ... the humans civilizations for example, it would be lame if they all had the same architecture, once I refresh my memory on what are the bits and pieces that make up the different architectures, what kind of different buildings there are and all that kind of stuff, they should make choices, then, and be able to have the towns have different characters to them when they make their walls or just their houses and various castles and little parapet things, and little spikes that stick out of the top with little flags on them, and minarets and all that kind of thing or whatever. As much diversity as you've got in the real world, as much as we can convey with a tile based format, that stuff should come across, it's one of those things where you have to engage in the project at some point and actually do it, and it's hard to time things which are superfluous in a sense, but they should be done. At first things will look vanilla, just as we get people to have walls properly and moats and tapestries and rugs and things, just making the towns look better, but as we get enough information to allow them to diversify then they should be able to do that, hopefully.

145
Tilesets and Graphics / Re: Mayday's tileset compilation - in the hands of community heroes
« on: January 29, 2016, 01:55:43 am »
@Habbadax check out this thread.

146
Tilesets and Graphics / Re: Dwarf Fortress graphics repositories
« on: January 29, 2016, 01:54:35 am »
fricy "Removed assorted river/lake fauna until raw conflicts are resolved" on the 28th, when Habbadax fixed these conflicts back on the 26th. While fricy has never ignored problems when they are brought to his attention, I think it's important that others realize that he cannot be expected to maintain all of the definition files let alone each set in the repo.

If the game loads for him using a particular set it gets a pass and is "updated". I definitely don't blame his process considering the idea of maintaining all those sets seems ludicrous, but I hope that people with the know how could help out on github to avoid these issues in the future. Ideally someone could even reorganize the Frankenstein sets, but just having them defined correctly so that "updated" actually meant updated would be a good start. Heh.

Anyway, good luck.




edit: I pointed Habbadax towards this thread.

147
Utilities and 3rd Party Applications / Re: Legends Viewer 1.16.01 (0.42.XX Compatible) Unoffical Branch
« on: January 27, 2016, 02:03:43 pm »
Quote from: Kromtec on January 27, 2016, 01:55:21 pm
They are displayed in 250x250 pixel  ;)

Ha! You're correct! But, the critique still stands. =]

Quote from: Kromtec on January 27, 2016, 01:55:21 pm

I will enhance the sitemap behaviour in a future release.


Awesome.


148
Tilesets and Graphics / Re: Mayday's tileset compilation - in the hands of community heroes
« on: January 27, 2016, 01:55:21 pm »
Quote from: awdixon on January 27, 2016, 01:06:14 pm
Not sure what was happening.  I made it in Paint, uploaded, then immediately downloaded just to make sure and it lost a bunch of clarity.  Just uploaded now and for some reason it worked better.  Better image (also updated original post image):

penguin man and child


The image is being scaled by your browser which is anti-aliasing your pixel art. You'll have to scale the image manually in whatever program you're using in order to provide a pixel perfect enlarged view.



I hope that helps.

149
Utilities and 3rd Party Applications / Re: Legends Viewer 1.16.00 (0.42.XX Compatible) Unoffical Branch
« on: January 27, 2016, 01:25:46 pm »
Quote from: Kromtec on January 27, 2016, 12:36:05 pm
### Site Maps
* Read site maps if exported with DFHacks' `exportlegends all`.
* They are loaded when navigating to the page of the site not at startup.
* They have to be in the same folder as the XMLs (Archive not supported)

I understand why the size of the site map thumbnail matches the other two images when they are displayed together, but wouldn't the site maps be more useful if they actually lead to the file's original resolution? Right now it just leads to the default map just like the other two. I'm not sure I see the point of viewing a 50x50 pixel image of the site map when the image is 816x816 at it's largest. Even on the smaller end the image is roughly three times larger than the thumbnail presented.


Otherwise, I'm happy it works with the exported site maps sans DFhack. Thanks!


Edit: Or maybe the problem is on my end like the family trees and circular graphs and this only works if you have IE?

150
Utilities and 3rd Party Applications / Re: PyLNP 0.10e - Cross-platform Lazy Newb Pack port with graphics pack patching
« on: January 26, 2016, 05:50:37 pm »
Quote from: fricy on January 16, 2016, 12:56:27 pm
The set is not complete, true, but without the graphics sources, and a permission from Palatino I wouldn't start editing someone else's IP. Creatures were moved around and added, so new sprites are needed, then the sprite sheets will need to be reorganized, then the config files will need to be updated. It's a process, this is merely the first step: getting the objects folder up-to-date. On the other hand: I really should give him a notice, that more work is needed...

I was previously under the impression that you (fricy) updated the DFgraphics repo to the latest version - meaning I thought you actually updated the definitions of each individual set and checked to see if everything worked with the latest DF release in non-error situations - which is why I thought you were crazy for attempting such a feat.

To reiterate my new understanding, the manifest.json file is updated as long as the set loads without error. Nothing more. The definitions remain untouched and it's up to the individual authors to actually update the set (aside from Spacefox[?]).

If so, that approach leads to confusion especially since "loading without error" does not mean there are no errors; sets still need to be updated to the latest DF version even though they are "updated" for the latest LNP.

Sets in the repo that are exclusively maintained by one person (CLA, Taffer, etc) are easy to address (like your follow up post in the Gemset thread). But, "collaborative" sets like - Pheobus and Mayday and others fall into the nightmare I mentioned earlier - mainly because it's more like a Frankenstein than any sort of collaborative effort.

Tallcastle is a good example. He is currently tackling the tremendous effort of adding a lot of new sprites to Mayday, so that people can continue to enjoy this set. I know you said, "Worst case scenario is some mismatched sprites," but that lackadaisical response ignores the efforts that Tallcastle is pouring into his work for the benefit of others and the users who stumble into problems with "updated" DFgraphics and the LNP by proxy.

Posting a DFgraphics thread to point Tallcastle and others to the relevant conversations for future reference would be beneficial. That's all I think the DFgraphics thread needs to be - a reference of what DFgraphics is and is not, possible improvements and where help is needed, especially since these aren't problems you can look up in the DF wiki.


Quote from: PeridexisErrant on January 15, 2016, 08:10:09 pm
The actual problem is that years ago someone (IIRC Phoebus) invented "tileset magic", where via a number of colour and transparency tricks a carefully-drawn tile could look like many different things in-game.  This required changes to the object raws, and those are what cause all the compatibility trouble - most graphics packs are an unholy combination of tileset (hence data folder), mod (hence raw/objects), creature graphics, and now TwbT/DFHack files too.
Understood. Thank you.

Quote from: PeridexisErrant on January 15, 2016, 08:10:09 pm
I really want to find a better (more compatible) format at some point and end this madness, but the chains of history are strong . . .

If anything, I appreciate the freedom Toady allows when it comes to the format provided for the graphic sets. Take CLA and Taffer as two examples of single author sets where there is organization. Both authors were allowed to approach it in different manners with the same format - in a way they preferred and what worked best for them.

You can argue the case for some sort of organization guide, but the madness doesn't come from not following guidelines - it's the absence of real collaboration within those sets and unfortunately the current state of the repo adds to that problem.


Quote from: PeridexisErrant on January 15, 2016, 08:10:09 pm
Alternatively DF could improve it's graphics support, but that could be a while...

I feel as if this is addressing a different issue. Maybe something related to TWBT? I'm not familiar with DFhack. In any case, I'm positive you know that more graphic support isn't going to fix disorganization and lack of maintenance by set authors when updating to the latest version. Heh.

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