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Messages - PencilinHand

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121
DF General Discussion / Re: Anouncing The PathFinder Project
« on: November 29, 2009, 01:22:31 am »
Quote from: CobaltKobold on November 28, 2009, 06:54:32 pm
Quote from: PencilinHand on November 28, 2009, 01:36:52 pm
I could think of one or two but they are fringe cases that are closer to a game mechanic than pathfinding.

EDIT: Here is a hint.
And yet...when it's doing that, it won't be looking for paths, so I think it can safely be ignored for groundlings?

I do wonder if there is any way for a [FLIER] to recover from projectile status more than others. but tht's off-topic.

In response to your question, it is likely that Toady would handle all potential situations such as that(or something like a bird losing its wings while flying and fighting) with the physics engine.   That is why I said it was closer to a game mechanic than relevant to pathfinding but could give cause for a pathable subject to attempt to path from a position which it should not be able occupy(due to a bug, basically).

---------

My mind keep wandering back to how pathfinding through a hierarchy of zones would work and the most economical and useful methods for forming the hierarchy.  Toward that end, I do have a question for shadow_slicer.

1. Is it a necessity or a convenience there for the divisions in the example some pages back to be base 2 or a divisible of 2?

2.  How are zones ensured to be useful without potential misdirection?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I have tried to follow the whole thread but I think some of it went over my head due to jargon and I haven't looked into the specific code.  So, I am wondering how the more inconvenient cases are handled.

122
DF General Discussion / Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« on: November 28, 2009, 10:13:11 pm »
Quote from: Neonivek on November 28, 2009, 10:03:24 pm
People are oddly starting to migrate from asking Toady things to asking Footkerchief things.

I already asked Toady something in private (not that it is a big secret, it just is uninteresting and not appropriate to this thread... at least not as far as I know)

It is getting close to going overboard.

Goodness I didn't even realise the 26th was American Thanksgiving.

As far as we know Fireballs are still in the game right? Or did Toady add a "Fire" material and fireballs are now Glob Material breaths? Well I am aware he made a "Fire" material for certain creatures.

American Thanksgiving is on the last Thursday in November.  Don't ask me why that day was chosen but it has been a federal law since 1942.

123
DF General Discussion / Re: Anouncing The PathFinder Project
« on: November 28, 2009, 01:36:52 pm »
Quote from: CobaltKobold on November 27, 2009, 06:51:56 pm
Footkerchief: So long as it's a 'pure' pf thing, yeah. But, eventually, pf = ai.
And remember the dwarven pathfinding truism: sock.value>>elephant.cost
Quote from: shadow_slicer on November 27, 2009, 11:18:52 am
The problem is that you don't have to have a single bitvector for each tile, you have to have a bitvector for all 27 possible directions from the tile! This is necessary to implement stairways, adjacent floors, ramps, etc. without nasty special cases. Then we also need separate costs for each movement type, creature size and everything else (possibly for each direction!).

I don't see a way of storing all that information without using gobs of memory. But if we simply use a call-back function, the client can calculate that information procedurally. This function doesn't have to be slow. Odds are if Toady implemented one for DF it would probably only consist of some modulo arithmetic, bit tests, and table lookups -- all of which is pretty fast.
You could....take the wordsright out of my mouth.

26 directions though. When is it ever impermissible for a creature to move to where it already is? Also...I am fairly sure that flying or swimming are required to make a move to up-and-direction (without ramp, natch)
I'd suggest some manner of preclusions, but I already found a corner case I'd like preserving: swimming up waterfalls. solvable if swimming is permitted to go up.

I see why DF is loath to path fliers/swimmers right, now...for walkers, it's dead easy to see where you can go- up if on(up stair || up/down stair) && up(down stair || up/down stair) up+direction if on(ramp) && direction(wall), direction if directionIsFloored, and the downs are inverse of the ups (...actually, it won't check for the wall, as you're standing on it, leading to one-way ramps.)

I could think of one or two but they are fringe cases that are closer to a game mechanic than pathfinding.

EDIT: Here is a hint.

124
DF General Discussion / Re: Topic Vote - Dwarf Fortress Talk #5
« on: November 26, 2009, 04:33:55 am »
Can't say I am especially thrilled by the subject that won, but I will listen to it anyway.

I really do find it hard to believe that NEITHER of my preferences won.  Although, I know many probably feel that the only subject that was really juicy enough to be talked about was the cultural one.  I will admit it has some interesting bits but I can't help it that I am more curious about where Adv mode and the technical underbelly of DF is and is headed.  It must just be in my nature.  >:(

125
DF General Discussion / Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« on: November 26, 2009, 03:01:09 am »
Quote from: zwei on November 26, 2009, 02:36:56 am
Quote from: PencilinHand on November 25, 2009, 04:25:43 pm
Quote from: alfie275 on November 25, 2009, 12:32:30 pm
I count 20, 3 of them being blue, for a christmas release that gives him 20 days + 10 days of debugging.
= 29 days as my best guess if nothing gets dropped.  Allowing for a one or two day break for Toady.

Allrite, I am marking 25.12.2009 on my calendar as "DF day". Expect very pissed and ranty post at 26.12.2009 00:00:01.

Note: My guess was based on the assumption that squads finish exactly on time and that count of 29 days starts at the first of December with Toady taking two days off for Christmas(so 5 days in November + 2 days off in December + 29 work days in December = 37 36 days from this writting).  So your counter should read as due 31.12.2009 and would basically celebrate the new release with the new year.  This is assuming what I think are fairly optimistic numbers for some of the items and total guesses for others are relatively accurate.

126
DF General Discussion / Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« on: November 25, 2009, 04:25:43 pm »
Quote from: alfie275 on November 25, 2009, 12:32:30 pm
I count 20, 3 of them being blue, for a christmas release that gives him 20 days + 10 days of debugging.

Here we are assuming we get exactly one item completed per day when we know this won't be the case and this ignores general testing, troubleshooting, and integrating the openGL code.  Unless Toady decides to cut 5 or 6 items and limit the scope of the remaining ones, based on Toady's last guesstimate, it would be a minor miracle to see a Christmas release.

Assuming squads finish exactly at the end of November.
7 days for the underground
2? days for Butchery/rot
4? days for "a few of those others" that "might take longer"
3? days for "lingering irritations with reactions"
3? days for "explore minor compat issues"
7? days for "any remaining tests"
2? days for "handle a few misc. bug reports and minor interface requests that have arisen"
3? days for 40d#

= 29 days as my best guess if nothing gets dropped.  Allowing for a one or two day break for Toady.

Personally, I am expecting an early-to-mid January release, as Toady has mentioned is not outside the realm of possibility in the Just Press Start interview(archive link, Tarn Adams Interview), listen in starting at about 47 minutes.

127
DF General Discussion / Re: Topic Vote - Dwarf Fortress Talk #5
« on: November 25, 2009, 03:40:45 pm »
Quote from: Glacies on November 24, 2009, 09:58:50 pm
Quote from: Rainseeker on November 24, 2009, 09:40:46 pm
Quote from: Glacies on November 24, 2009, 09:32:52 pm
-.-- --- ..- / -.. --- -. .----. - / .-.. .. -.- . / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . .-.-.- / - --- --- / -... .- -.. / -- .- --. --. --- - .-.-.-

--- -.- / -.- . . .--. / .. - / -. .. -.-. .

--- -.- .- -.-- / ... --- .-. .-. -.-- / -- .- -.-- -... . / - .... .- - / .-- .- ... / .- / -... .. - / .... .- .-. ... ....

..-. .. .-. . ..-. --- -..- / .--. .-.. ..- --. .. -. ... / -- .- -.- . / - .... .. ... / .- .-.. -- --- ... - / - --- --- / . .- ... -.--

I am really curious to know which two subjects are tied at the moment.  Only a day and a half left!


128
DF General Discussion / Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« on: November 24, 2009, 12:07:55 pm »
Quote from: smjjames on November 24, 2009, 11:38:49 am
Quote from: from the devlog
There weren't any amusing errors this time around, unless you count a dwarf running off to kill the local elephants bare-handed every time I did something wrong.

Lol, we should still be able to make dwarves chase elephants bare handed if we wanted to, right? :)

Looks like squad stuff will be done this week as the last two are already a dark blue (meaning more than 75% finished I think?), so those shouldn't take long and Toady was aiming to finish up squads by the end of the month.

Edit: I think the last two may be finished at the same time as they seem interrelated.

Squads could be polished off by the end of the week but I doubt it(testing, troubleshooting, thanksgiving?). 
I would be surprised if squads last beyond the weekend though.

129
DF General Discussion / Re: Anouncing The PathFinder Project
« on: November 22, 2009, 04:07:23 pm »
I am inclined to agree with the way shadow_slicer thinks regarding finding a computationally cheap and mathematically optimal path before anything else.

--------

If I have read and understood this thread right, the code that is being thrown around right now just arbitrarily divides a map along groupings of Cartesian coordinates forming a hierarchical system.  Then what would be most useful(for a pathfinding dwarf) would be a system of methods for more objective/less arbitrary grouping within the hierarchy.

Using the example given on the previous page, if "|" and "_" were borders for different zones at a mid level in a hierarchy of zones then something like the following might be more effective than arbitrary division.
Code: [Select]
############################
#c    ######################
#     #####  |   ###########
#    |       |    ##########
#######      |     #########
#######______|_____#########
#######     #|     |       b
#######  #   |_#############
########   # #   ###########
#########   _   ############
############ ###############
############a###############
Assuming my understanding is correct then what is really needed are efficient algorithms for forming and maintaining these zones intelligently so as to minimize path calculations from a to both b and c.

Am I way off base or is that basically the crux of the problem?

130
DF Gameplay Questions / Re: Dwarves won't train with crossbows
« on: November 22, 2009, 03:22:25 pm »
Currently, marksdwarfs will only use wood or bone bolts for practice.

You also want to be sure they carrying anything "extra" like a spare sock or backpack in their hands(many reasons why they would do this) which would stop them from practicing.  Lastly, sometimes they will just stand around rather than practice, so give it a few seasons.

131
DF General Discussion / Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« on: November 21, 2009, 11:42:04 am »
Quote from: The Great and Mighty Toady's Dev Blog 11/20/2009
...They put on their leggings, stuffed their flasks in them, went over to the barrels, filled up the flasks with ale and then milled around in the dirt....

Toady, you are a king among men.

132
DF General Discussion / Re: Topic Vote - Dwarf Fortress Talk #5
« on: November 14, 2009, 09:07:34 pm »
Battle specifics.  I am all about some battle specifics.  Though, I wouldn't be disappointed if adventure mode was the talking point.

133
DF Gameplay Questions / Re: A question about catapults
« on: November 14, 2009, 12:48:13 pm »
Let me answer you in the form of a question.

Would you want to be on the receiving end of a boulder if skipped off the ground one or two times before reaching you or would you rather not be anywhere near it in the first place?   ;)

134
DF General Discussion / Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« on: November 11, 2009, 02:32:52 pm »
Quote from: Footkerchief on November 11, 2009, 01:34:07 pm
Quote from: PencilinHand on November 11, 2009, 12:05:40 pm
What will the functional difference between a war hammer and a mace be in the new combat system aside from using a different skill?

Weapons have many more parameters now, so there should be some subtle differences.  Hammers probably have a smaller area on their striking surfaces, at least.

I was hoping for some elaboration beyond "there are some new differences."

Eventually, I would think if weapons ever get broken out to the raws we could start seeing some real variation in weapons.  As far as I have heard so far, both in current and upcoming releases, the difference between a mace and a war hammer are mostly in name and skill used.  The extent to which this is inaccurate is what I am curious about.  I am thankful for what you do Footkerchief in attempting to parse and answer some of the torrent of questions directed at Toady.  However, I think only he can answer a technical question like this unless it has already explained somewhere.

135
DF General Discussion / Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« on: November 11, 2009, 12:05:40 pm »
What will the functional difference between a war hammer and a mace be in the new combat system aside from using a different skill?

Also, will the skill progression be changed in any way, for any skill, from the current Dabbling->Novice->etc?



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