Bay 12 Games Forum

I think it's reasonable to say 'Hey, Max just lied, this is scum poo, Fal's just being used by Max' - except the hole is deeper than that.

Here is one of the places where Fal said Fal used dup on 'overpowered'.

Quote from: ToonyMan on February 04, 2024, 05:46:21 pm

I want FoU to explain themselves more now that I understand NJW targeting me and FoU isn't a soft clear.

@FoU:
Who did you intend to target on N1 and what was your thought process in doing so?

I targeted the sphere of Overpowered. Barring shenanigans, it should be very clear to precisely one player what I did, and there'll be hints of it elsewhere. I targeted it because I guessed that it'd be popular, and because I knew it would benefit me as well.

Very clear to the player who inherits Dup.  Someone gained that ability, that's me.  I do have Overpowered, but I have other spheres too; I gained my #2 of an ability with spheres on it besides overpowered.  The hints of it elsewhere, that's the other people with the targeted sphere, if any, getting duplicates, #2 abilities, 'hints' as FoU called them.

It dupped FoU's #2 accelerate ability, OR that is Max's copy, stolen during the day and changed and used/passed on.  I don't think so, but nobody's claimed a number 1 accelerate inheritance, but CM confirms the thing has spheres that Max had (overpowered) and that he didn't.  My #2 ability happens to have at least one of the spheres that isn't a match for Max's spheres, and since I think scum did this, little reason to hide which ones, but I'm still squirrely, I don't see pro-town in saying, even though if FoU is scum, scum know.  There could be some other anti-town or even a pro-town who misuses info.  Info hazard, ack.

But that could explain why/how FoU dupped accel, and dupped my #2, but didn't dup Max's ability.

Except, if so - why would FoU mislead and claim 'I dupped overpowered N1' unless FoU is scum?

So something happened to Max's Sketch #2?

I'm confused, but pretty sure there's scum action here.

Questions. Did Max ever say what they knew about Sketch 2? If so, that would mean a 3Pscum team, and the likely indication of Redirection.

Here's relevant quote.  There's only this one.  It's after FoU started to press for someone to confirm that Dup even passed on/FoU has a confirmable night action.  BUt where Max says he said this already... I don't see it.  I see plenty else about his Bazaar and how he can change a sphere tonight and tomorrow he could change something else - he never implies he has 2 shots until this quote, and it's after FoU appears to be fishing for the person and claims to have targeted overpowered.  Which might be a FoU error, not to consider that Max has that sphere, and is about to flip and not have a copy.

Quote from: Imp on February 04, 2024, 04:20:59 am

Nobody appears to have spoken up, but I'll state I'm not really counterclaiming FoU.  I also don't particularly believe anyone can only do one thing, and think it's risky to believe that about anyone.  But sure, for the sake of not making bad mistakes, I confirm FoU COULD have done something dupy to me, in a way I cannot confirm was FoU and cannot confirm choice of target should mean anything.  So it's not like FoU picked me, if I'm even confirming anything about FoU.

This game is so night game complex, I can't even confirm if I can confirm a thing I know something about, dang.

Er, hold on, as I said, I thought FoU did the dupy thing to me. I got a free copy of one of my abilities. I think it would be a bad idea for me to use it at this juncture, though.
If that's anything like what happened to you, have we confirmed that the wishbone *overwrites* actions instead of *adding*? Because that sounds like Fallacy may have targeted both of us.

This fits what we see on Sketch, which Max died with, and suggests if there's a Sketch #2, it isn't limited the same way (or it already was a 1 shot; since Sketch mutates... kinda moot, exactly as Max explains)

Quote from: Crystalizedmire on February 05, 2024, 06:54:33 pm

When I double act, I apply cascade to all my actions for the night. The curse applies the limitation sphere and turns the ability to a one shot. When applied with teh cascade effect, the target of teh ability gets the curse passed down to them.

The ability you hit doesn't have a target. It seems plausible and likely that you're telling the truth. You just happened to use your ability in such a way that there's absolutely no reason for me or anyone to care about it in the slightest.

Crystal, can you explain what your ability does a little more thoroughly? Because I didn't get told anything you think I was, except that the ability I had that was already one-shot before it would transform into something new now had the Limitation sphere. Which doesn't even stick around after it transforms.

In particular, should it have passed on to the player I targeted that night? Because if so, that's reason to be suspicious of Fallacy, which would be kind of a big deal overturning my understanding of the game.

As of right now, I don't have any abilities that target a player, so, otherwise, there's no way for me to pass any curse on. My "bazaar" offer targets a blue sphere. I do not believe that this constitutes targeting players who have that sphere, either, based on what NQT has told me. So your mistrust is based on bad assumptions.

Here's an interesting interaction from Max about/towards FoU.

Quote from: Imp on February 05, 2024, 10:14:42 pm

EBWOP

Quote from: Maximum Spin on February 05, 2024, 10:07:58 pm

Fallacy, what have you even been doing this whole game? I'd vote you if I didn't think you'd NO U and hammer me, which would make me sad. And also if you didn't always suck this much as town.

Yeah.  How's Fal's scum night game?  I mean, if Fal's scum, can I kinda relax, or is this a clueless-looking player that will absolutely gut me, break my kneecaps, and cut my throat simultaneously as scum with their night game while I was looking in three corners they bumble-convinced me the scum were hiding in?

Scum Fallacy rarely gets the chance to use night actions, but when he does, they're probably totally unhelpful to scum and will somehow manage to hit every town player's trap possible. Fallacy... tends to get ideas above his station, if you follow me. In other words, likely to try some cockamamie plan that could never have worked in a vain attempt to try to confuse town, then immediately get pegged by everyone for it.

---

Quote from: FallacyofUrist on February 05, 2024, 10:20:33 pm

I'd totally hammer you over your extorting of me on Day 1 as seen above

You know, Imp was right that there was no reason to assume anyone would actually go along with me on that. I thought it was funny that it actually worked on you a little.

Fallacy, what have you even been doing this whole game? I'd vote you if I didn't think you'd NO U and hammer me, which would make me sad. And also if you didn't always suck this much as town.

We know Max is scum.  FoU is either partner or being used/set up, I see 100% chance of one of those.

As a question Imp, which is more likely to be scum. EP, Crystal, Toony, or Jack?

If one isn't scummy to you, please give an explanation as to why?

Sure.  Full reads, which include those 4.

EP: Solid pro-town play.  Reasonable thinking and responses, especially D2 on.  Not one single response or choice made past D2 that looks anti-town to me in the slightest.  I will be carefully rereading D1 play for everyone before D3 ends, unless it ends really early.

CM:  Pretty solid CM-typical play.  Not obviously anti-town.  A bit questionable, I don't always 'get' CM's reasons even when CM is doing their best for town and highly active.  But believably town CM here.

Toony:  I hardly know what to say.  Not obviously anti-town.  Most of my deep concerns about Toons are actually reflections of my concerns about NJW, which don't exist unless NJW is anti-town teamed with Toons.  I'd love to go back to saying 'Toons is town'.  He's my most emotionally-biased-towards player in play.  Extremely reasonable mechanical play, could be pro-town.  I know he's busy in the other chats too, and while I have concerns reading his in-thread posts (mostly because 'egads, but NJW....') however reading the shared private chats, that's town-Toony to me.  Would like more scumhunting, but I suspect Toons has the hardest and most stressful situation in the game, and isn't even getting the 'Imp and Toons know Imp and Toons are both town' support from me I really, really wish I could give him, oh that hurts.  So Toons gets some slack, and I count my bias about wanting him alive as long as reasonable.

EJ:  Interesting.  Has a strong survival focus and threatens harm to town if harmed, probably knowingly.  Could be a EJ-tell for all I know.  Going meta, this looks more like town EJ than SK-with-optional-town-wincon (Who really hurt town that game!!!!) but not really a close match to either.  However, my huge red flags about anti-town focus are down; this is a EJ that is showing a drive to have an 'enjoyable-to-EJ' feud with Toons as his top priority.  I'm not used to seeing this.  I don't know how to read it.  I didn't see this in the Town-EJ game I was in, but I know my own play is probably more strongly affected by 'what is my role, what can I do now and in the future' than anything else that might affect me, so I try to lean towards that reasoning for EJ; FBYOR EJ D1 couldn't lord power over Toons; EJ D2+ in this game oh boy can, and loves it... subtle, but threaten it and EJ is intense and guarding it.  Looks like town poo, but could be scum hiding behind a reasonable pile of town poo.  But what about that scumhunting?  Where is it?

Tric:  Huh.  Very protective of NJW, and probably not a anti-town partner of NJW, given the flips we've seen (Low chance, not no chance).  Has a known day ability, and I'm suspicious of a day-acting potential gain of Max's apparently missing Sketch #2.  The claim of no abilities to use (Except airsoft now) seems... surprising.  Still, it's D3, we'd potentially have had 6 elims by now, plus any night kills.  Maybe unlike me, GOAT JOAT, who asked for entire continents of fluff, maybe Tric asked for a barrel of whoop-rear and got that and only that, and 'mission accomplished' so... dunno.  Like how you scumhunt though.  You care and are trying, and that's towards town Tric.

NJW:  Either town MVP or playing the long con super well as of D3.  I have no meta of NJW, especially not with a role like this one, which surely is not a normal role.  If I die at night I think we should look into 'how did NJW allow this?' otherwise... let the games continue, and I hope NJW is pro-town (which means town or can win with, I call town 'pro-town' too).

FoU:  Can of worms.  Something's wrong here.  They're getting used very heavily, or they're scum.  I like them, I like the mechanical outcomes I know for sure came from them, and that means nothing.  NJW, I have reason to believe chose to target me N2.  N1, FoU benefited me greatly in more than one way - it's random, and revealing it was me that was helped, might help scum.  Scary stuff.  Very scary stuff, that I can read as innocent NAI or coordinated and clearly working with MS D2 to find that dup target - based on the absence of that Sketch #2.

Also, I just asked NQT a question about the Ritual Knife and he clarified something: its effect is specifically killing me. It can be redirected, but even if it is, it'll kill me, not the new target. So you can use the knives to kill me, albeit at the risk of wasting the Page's one proc for the night.

And since it would redirect into NJW's whatever NJW has, this also triggers whatever NJW has.

I'd rather we elim EP if we think we need him dead, let's leave NJW alone unless we're sure we need to elim him.

EP is high on my probably town list.  NJW is still either town MVP or actually could be scum.  I'm willing to go with town MVP until we have seen several more roleflips or something weird happens.  I'm definitely more concerned about people-not-NJW.  My top concern is what happened to Max's sketch #2? I think that's likely very scum-related, be it that 'overpowered was never the target' or 'pre-death, daytime switcheroo!'.

As for trading, I guess I could trade my chaos emerald for a Glass? But I understand if ToonyMan doesn't want any items in my hands, so I probably won't make that trade unless it looks like I won't be executed today.

I don't know what to say about if you should be elim today.  You're actually still null to me.

However, Trades can have backups.  Trade Arthur Conan Doyle's Magnifying Glass for Purple Chaos Emerald

Can I please get a second trade offer for the Glass, as well as if FoU is willing, the matching trade? 

The most recent trade will happen if it can, the second most recent if the first cannot.

We can restate trades to ensure Glass goes into FoU's hands closer to end of day if desired.

Since I know the item's free, and I know I keep a copy, and I don't see a way this item can help scum be scummy, I'm cool with it in anyone's hands.  Nobody can say using it was their action, unless someone anti-town has a way to use items or this item harmfully, it's a fine item to have moving around, to my thinking.

Is anyone willing/able to trade Arthur Conan Doyle's Magnifying Glass for any other non-Page item?  This will place two in play, one in my hands and one in the other person's hands.  Both will be free use.

My night plans are pretty much unchanged regardless of if this trade happens, but having 2 glasses in the world seems good to me in case there's another night death, makes it harder to remove both glasses from the game at once.

CM's explanation makes perfect sense to me. Her Mimic [t1, t2] action uses a random ability of [t1] on [t2]. If she double-acts, [t1]'s action is additionally used on a random other player.

perfect.  CM, if this is true, please never target me with mimic.  There's a 1/total_players chance that gets items on NJW moving.  Low odds, but why risk it.

I forgot.  FoU wouldn't have overpowered ability unless it's an overpowered auto or something, if all FoU's claims are true.  Dup moved, accelerate #1 and #2 moved.  FoU, willing to say if 'locate abilities with tag overpowered would even ping for you now?