Bay 12 Games Forum

If NJW is scum, most likely partners are somewhere between Tric, Toons, EJ, no particular order, not that I read groups well.

If Max is scum, I have no idea who third partner is.  I presume we face 3 anti-town, no idea if they're all scum.

CM:  Probably town.

EP:  Probably town.

NJW:  I really wish was town, but the anti-town is strong.

EJ:  Way too interested in being able to have kill sphere and have toony and get EP and probably get more.  Small dreams, one step at a time, doesn't seem mafia but serial killer working on a killer chat, I wonder.  Or Mafia hiding mafia by enjoying sharing dreams of focus of kill toony when and iff.  Or town doing that.  Ehh.  Not strong anti-town, just strong anti-toony.  I think the apple fixation that one showed was 'omg imp's gonna save toony with it'.  Nah.  1st, I can't forcefeed.  2nd, I have larger dreams, and Toons could be scum.  But if he's pro-town I really want him alive, same with you, just please stop playing dumb games before tsunami superfree action anti-town eat us all, cause if that's our scum we have little time left.

FoU:  Can't read that person.  Their night claim proves an action was used, maybe.  Also proves they had zero control of who benefited except themself, and they chose to empower the most dangerous and powerful power in the game, which helps everyone... and that we know web had it and is dead, maybe helps town more than anti-town.  I have no idea.  I can't read them.  Hope to read strong pro-town in the future!

Max:  Can't read him.  If he's anti-town and we flip him, thank you all.  Thing is, he looks as anti-town as everyone who 'protected' or didn't push for web.  If that's the reason, NAI and useful for the real anti-town.  Cause if Max is town, he wants to save max but needs to kill anti-town.  If I was anti-town, I want Max dead, more than anyone else in play.  Max can probably read me real.  Wish I could do the same.

Tric:  Playing Tric games, mix of pro-town/maybe anti-town.  Enough pro-town for me to be semi-okay.  Still getting my future help or some of it, if I have a future. 

Toony:  Earth to Toony.  I bet you're getting your head kicked in everywhere you chat.  Good luck, hope you're town, do good town stuff whatever you're doing.

May the mod have mercy on us all.

Given the apple will rot, is there a point to keeping it?

I don't know if anyone wants to discuss if they have the sphere protection.  I can see a LOT of reasons not to.

However, we all know from the flip:

Quote from: notquitethere on February 01, 2024, 04:51:11 pm

[Night][Item][Fruit] (Protection) Apple: You may Eat this apple as a free action. You are protected from all (Kill) and (Mafiakill) sphere actions on the phase you eat the apple. This item will rot away and be unusable by the end of the next night if you are still holding it.

I can do many things with this, including the obvious.  If I eat it, it'll function normally for me.  I can do other stuff.

One of the things I wanted to do, and with my mindset the most tempting thing to do, is actually retain it unused tonight (I can do that under some circumstances) then tomorrow trade or (my preference) give it to someone I trust a lot, and dup the protection sphere.  That ensures the free dup passes to a person with protection sphere, which might actually just be the person who has the apple, if nobody else has protection, it would have to go to them.  That would mean person would have two apples and the free dup ability, unless there's other protection sphere folks, then apple person only maybe has the dup.  I'd want the person to trade me back the apple that day, but it would be their choice.

I'm pretty sure some folks want me dead if they can work it.  So I probably won't be duping the apple.

But since I have no further reason to hide that I have the dup, and I presume my claims are not terrifying to everyone as super-strong town or whatever else you fear I may be.  I'm useful, that's it, power wise.  I make you better, and that goes for all of you.  It's better for me the more of you are alive, (but that's secondary for me, and I don't mean wincon, anti-town gotta go) and better for you if I choose to help you, I'll get better at helping as time goes on.  My help can be weird, look weird.  I understand how to control my controlable abilities and how to prevent activation of my uncontrolable ones (they're fine if not activated, and I think I can control that).

I'm kinda a mix between Robin Hood and Secret Santa, in terms of what I do.

I make no promises of what I do with that apple.  Or what I might do with it later, if it is not eaten.  Except I promise, I won't let it rot.

Also, if we see town flip on Max, huge increase in the odds I simply eat the apple.

And I don't give a shit about whatever "outs" you gave me on the apple front and then subsequently closed

You totally massively misunderstood or misassumed.

When I mentioned the apple, it was never in connection 'so maybe I should give it to NJW'.  You may have decided I meant that.  I never thought it.

I brought it up because I don't know if the Page is in scum control.  I don't know if we have idiot town willing to take a 50% chance on their vigshot vs mafia.

I never intended to give you the apple when I brought up apple.  I'm shocked and disturbed that people started to move to get the apple out of my hands when they heard apple.

I never 'subsequently closed' on anything about that apple.

You took the job without apple option, at least for N2.  You had options that didn't involve the apple to get out of that N2.  You didn't take them; you don't get apple as well.  If you are town and do your job with that Page, which you claimed to have accepted, you shouldn't care about apple is my thinking.

If you need extra help D3, that can be discussed.  It may or may not be available.  But that's not what you're doing.  You're waffling all over the world, and that's scummy to me, hardcore.  Because it perfectly matches you don't even have the page anymore, and everything's scum from here on out.

I also want to muddy the waters here.  I claim I got an apple from Qua last night.

It's an item.  I can do a lot with items.  However, if anyone thinks I'm town and need protection from a nightkill, I might be eating the apple tonight.  I might give it, I might do things I do with it that are not revealed by Qua's roleflip and don't help town for me to reveal except 'oh, nuff said, there's more here than meets even the apple of the eye'.

However, I might eat it.  We already know there's going to be that Page in play tonight.  We only see evidence of one unstopped kill last night, there might be more than one kill-able person.  But there's a real chance I don't need protection tonight, and maybe someone else does.  NJW already said they do not/will not and they haven't retracted that yet.

Here's my first statement of the apple.  Sorry if you don't understand the last sentence.  I never considered the apple going to you today.  That was not why I brought it up.

I asked about your rationale for being willing to take the page at some point, but not to give up the apple. Because that means you thought it was less important to have extra chances to control and block the nightkill THAN FOR YOU TO KEEP THE APPLE AND USE THE PAGE'S POWER. You're more willing to take the page than give up the apple. Or at least that's what I'm getting from the endless paragraphs that make up this thread.

Before I knew you could theoretically control the kill(s) with the Page, I viewed the Page as an item that costs someone an action to move around to avoid being killed.  That's a NAI harmful to everyone object.  I didn't know your option to maybe handle the Page safely existed; so I offered to remove it from play.  That removes from everyone this hot-potato, I think it's better out of play than in, unless someone who could control it exists.  My removing it from play also offers a pro-town option above it just being in someone's hands when they die, no biggie, other ways to do it, ideal not to remove the Page from play if there's a good Page in play use for it, which I don't have.

I think you're really scummy for exploring any idea other than page in your hands, after you went as far with it as you did.  I think you're scum who had the page, and need outs.  I think town you would keep the page and discuss your needs and options.  "Guys, I think you get N2 if there's no other kills.  Can't promise anything past that".  Well, we're talking about removing everything but anti-town kills, so that sounds good if so.  But you don't stick to that.  You even talk about moving the page before D3, else how could CM or someone else have it + apple N3?  So you're talking about no protection N2.

I'd rather keep the Page in your hands, period, if you live, and talk about how to keep protecting you if possible.

Except you're so scum-looking in priority, and fit scum for D1 too, that's hard for me.

Mass votes will decide.  It's hard for me, you look really anti-town in how you're doing everything, and your answers still look anti-town to me.  And if you're scum on the hook you're going to say anything you think helps.  I know that, I'm trying to read everyone deep.  Watching the universe where you're anti-town fits really well for my read of your actions.

Still, dig yourself out, and/or town decides.  It wasn't easy to stay on web either.  I don't know.  I just know 'looks and fits anti-town, I don't see pro-town here'.  And that drives my vote.  I'm hugely relieved I was right about web.  I'm town and I don't know, I just read.

But until you went all waffles, this was my read of you, and you had huge, though unearned, town cred with me.  You were basically nqt in Max's last game to me, 'What is nqt?  Townie, doing town stuff, taking town risks, making town choices, saying hardly any words.  Kk, that's town I should protect'.  Then you stopped acting like that, hardcore, repeatedly.

It sucks.  This was how I saw you, before you went all waffles.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Yr4_od7Fc

What I really need from everyone, to help me not lynch town NJW if NJW can be town.

NJW was 100% him keep the page until he heard about me having the apple.

Then he's so willing to get the apple out of my hands he is even willing to discuss putting the Page and the apple in somebody else's hands N3 (meaning mafia and any other kills are uncontrolled N2).

How can town NJW think that's a better use of the book than him using it tonight?

He has even said don't bother to protect him. Then he spouted nonsense about 'double protection'.  I think nah, he's killing tonight himself, him or his partner, or would have, and just said it didn't work as expected or there's more kills.

He didn't really get intense about it until the discussion of removing kill sphere entirely came up between me and Max.

Start of D2, this is NJW's stance.  This is good.  I like this. If NJW had held this stance, I would still townread NJW:

I have the bible page. I should keep it to redirect the kill to me… I might ask for that apple as I can’t be 100% sure I’ll live. People treating it like a cursed item is weird: someone will get hit by the mafia kill, this just lets us control it.

But after apple was mentioned, first he offers me other artefact for apple.
I tell him that's scum on earth, does not fly, because he said D1 don't even bother to protect him, and didn't bother to give it to me N1, which was what I told him I would accept, no questions asked, if he thought he couldn't handle it.  He could have decided to give it to someone else and explained 'I'm scared of Imp, and I won't hold this to have a chance to absorb a kill, I was wrong about handling it, but I don't trust imp'.  I, would-be-Xanatos, actually discussed that with him D1.  And that if he needs to get the Page out of his hands, I'll take it for the emerald, but apple is no deal.  He didn't know he could have an apple when he agreed to take the Page; he didn't know he could have an apple when he decided to not give the Page away last night; he decided without apple knowledge to keep the Page.  He does not get an apple, and it's scum to even try.

He's all:

Imp: that's good to know, and I understand on the apple front. I think there's a reasonable chance I survive the night, and otherwise we don't get to absorb the kill, making this endless faffing about with the bible page pointless. I need to ask the GM something, it might be very counterproductive for me to have an apple in fact.

and later offers other artefact for emerald.  I accept.  To me that's fine, that's like EP's reaction to my interest in EP spending an action to use the glass.  No-reasoning-yes.  Both look town.  I am fully accepting NJW as probably town still.

Then this:

Imp: sorry if you've already answered this, but in your hands, the bible page may not still redirect kills to the holder. As such, you may not be able to stop a kill with the apple you hold. Am I right in thinking you believe your having the bible page and the apple is more important than the chance to prevent a nightkill?

Wtf.  Town NJW should, as EJ stated:

NJW adamantly refuses to give up the bible page.

How is NJW mafia?

That is the behavior I expect from town NJW.  NJW should be 'f-off, I keep this page'.  He's not.

Instead:

Imp: yeah, fair enough, I was mainly interested in the apple to control further nightkills.

The flip is this 'further nightkills'.  Apple rots tonight or is eaten if I trade it to NJW today.  Unless NJW has reason to think his top secret power that he won't say anything more about except waffle all over the world about won't kick in if he has the apple eaten, and it does kick in tomorrow, but then poofs, there's no cause for NJW to say this.

And then NJW waffles even further, and attempts to discuss no chance of control over night kill (and this is AFTER Max is onboard with the idea of removing kill sphere

but in your hands, the bible page may not still redirect kills to the holder. As such, you may not be able to stop a kill with the apple you hold. Am I right in thinking you believe your having the bible page and the apple is more important than the chance to prevent a nightkill?

The double f is NJW discussing the Page out of his hands.  No.  If he's discussing 'for future nights, maybe we make a new plan for tomorrow' - needs those words.  Everything I hear is about today.

Even this filth, triple f:

when there is the option to block the kill n3 by giving both to idk, Crystallized or whatever.

That's not this:

NJW adamantly refuses to give up the bible page.

I don't see town going, umm... I see scum going umm.

One other option.

We elim NJW.  But if we don't for some reason I currently think is totally stupid, but open to having my mind changed on, NJW keeps the Page tonight.  Whatever happens happens; I think scum things happen because I think NJW is outed scum with scum plans waving frantically.

One of two other things happen tonight. I eat the apple, or I prevent it from rotting (other things could happen too).  Perhaps we discuss further then.  I make no promises.  But if I really like what happens N2, maybe NJW ends up with some extra help D3/N3.

Currently he's as scum as web to me.

I'm not very awake, haven't read deeply.  I'll provide quotes if desired later.  I'll read deeply later, and discuss if my ideas have changed after a 'Imp is actually awake' read.

Every move NJW makes to even suggest giving the page to anyone looks scum to me.

D1 he said don't bother to protect him 'tonight' - that's when it hadn't been clarified 'in thread' what the page actually does.  He even jokes that I think the Page can be handed off like a bomb.

Based on what Toons told us about it, that was all I could ask about.  What Toons initially said, it is a handable-off bomb.  Course, if Toons and NJW are the other two scum, they both know how it works.

When I pushed for Toons to properly question about it, it was revealed that it is a full 'have for a day and night' bomb before it arms.  So moving it at all means it doesn't control N1 - but if the person who has it N1 keeps it past N2, it works for N2.

I urged NJW, when he saw it to make a decision.  He needs to commit to keep it or give it to me N1 (cost him an action, probably), or trade it to me tomorrow (doesn't cost anyone an action).  Why give it to me?  So I can remove it from the game.  Otherwise, someone's passing it around or dying.  It's going to be mostly town probably moving it, I think, so no advantage to having a 'hot potato' like that.  If it's not drawing the nightkill on purpose, why keep it in play - and he said don't even protect him.

Start of D2, he doesn't want to give up the Page.  He doesn't even mention trading the Page until I mention the apple.  Wrong moves.  10,000x negative town cred.

Last thing he says before I call to kill him is this absolute garbage plan of setting up so that CrystalizedMire has Page and apple N3.  That means no protection for anyone N2.  He had multiple townie outs.  He rejected them all.  He 'should' be able to handle drawing that nightkill, he said so himself and avoided any reasonable option to give or trade it before he heard 'apple'.

Also, he could have given it last night to anyone but me.  That person, if they had held it all day and through N2, would be a sacrifice - and I could have considered making sure they get the apple, maybe they get it in time to use it, though none of us knew the possible option N1.  But no, he held it, and made statements early D2 that he should continue to hold it.  Until he heard apple, flippin' scum.

It's very unfortunate.  Scum team probably is NJW and Toons.  I highly recommend elim NJW today and while I'm less sure of Toons, there's far too much 'this looks real' evidence.  If NJW actually isn't scum, there's no extra chance Toons is scum, same as Toons himself said.

And he didn't explain why he felt the wishbone use that he may have used an action on (or may cover himself with as a free action we can see) was more important than moving the apple off him.  Something he didn't even appear to consider doing until he heard 'apple', as in N3 have CM with page and apple.

Nah, this is scum that wants free nightkill without us wondering why.

Let's get him out of Sherwood Forest, Merry Men and... remaining enemies.

If not, I'll Xanatos something.  Working on it.

Yeah, thinking ahead.  Presuming we go to D3, EJ, you face a me, if you and I are alive.

If you flip Toons and game isn't over, now I don't have to worry about if Toons is anti-town, no matter how he flips.

He's part of your ablative armor.  I really, really don't want to see any pro-town die.  But no matter what your alignment is, precious EuchreJack... every player alive is someone I might decide failed the townie test more than you.  If I move off NJW today it is because he convinces me he's town, or because some idiot decides to reveal to me that it is them who is the anti-town Cthulhu of 13 spheres and 25 actions.  I don't know that is the role, or the number of spheres or number of actions.  But I'm hoping it isn't even worse than that.

While you play games of your dreams, this game I stare at the chance that there could be unlimited actions.  In the hands of anti-town.  I'm cool, I 'play'.  Robin Hood the Secret Santa, more or less - facing what could be Cthulhu who knows how to design a role even better than me.  What I asked for is useless.  All I got to fight scum is words, whoops.  'Scottish Novelist'?  No.  But I feel like I am finding out if the pen's mightier than the sword, because most of you asked for swords.  We literally may not have time to mess around and play this game, no matter how fun it seems to play.

Play to your wincon.  I literally don't have time to judge you by anything else.  If the game's designed so you're anti-town and have to die more than once, EJ, I'm gonna relax a little, that sounds like playtime, running you through the lynch a few times while gifts pop up wherever they do, good and bad, and I get to trade a little and fix a few problems (I created them, sure, but I can fix 'em) while we watch whatever color EJ turns each time we rinse him through the elim again.  That's actually the game I wish I could play.

Instead, nqt kindly designed me a role that gives me what I asked for and shows me how dangerous this game is, and events showed me what random can do atop that.  Alright, we're in a nightmare, and there's no stopping it except elim (or kill?) the scum and end this dream before it is crushed.  This game I'd otherwise enjoy taking to N20... I actually wish we could have ended it N2 with a town win and fond thoughts of what could have been if only the game went a little longer, we were so close to our powers.... no no.  Now think about the anti-town and what they're wishing.  We ain't got time for feuds, unless you'd rather feud than not lose.

So, town you, I could even thank for solving Toony.  But if solving Toony doesn't end the game, maybe solving EJ does.  I wonder what will read as anti-town tomorrow, if we have to step through this gate of wonder/hell into D3, for those of us that make it that far.