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Messages - Starver

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12376
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Jumping cats?
« on: September 22, 2009, 10:44:41 am »
I just trapped a cat in a room with five 1x3 bridges.  I retracted the one it was standing on, but before it retracted the cat moved to an adjacent bridge.  I retracted that bridge, and not only did the cat not fall, as I am accustomed to, but it flew (stunned) over the empty space onto another bridge.  This seems to be unusual behavior for both the cat and the retracting bridge.  I have used bridges for slaughtering for a long time now, and the only direction their victims ever moved was down.  Does anyone know what could be going on here?
There's another thread around here were retracting and raising bridges were tested for behaviour of items placed upon them.  I think "Dwarven Science: Bridgapults" was the subject.  Look at that.

Though I must say that I had always assumed things would fall (except for raising bridges, when they'd solely be catapulted in the direction of raising, which it appears is the one thing they won't do), and the fact that I'd never actually used a bridge in anger (only to create gaps/walls, etc) means that until I read that thread I was ignorant of the complexity.

12377
General Discussion / Re: Atheists
« on: September 22, 2009, 06:49:30 am »
Effectively there are 3 stances; Believe in God or Gods/Do not believe, but do not deny\ don't know (fence sitters)/Disbelieve in God or Gods. Practically, these are referred to as Theists/Agnostics/Atheists. This is usually done to avoid all these semantics arguments, which are a favorite of anyone who is losing a debate to try and derail the opposition's train of thought and thus win by default.
I personally describe myself as Agnostic because of my personal understanding (a.k. 'belief') that one (or certainly 'I') cannot know the Truth, whichever way it might be.  On top of this I adopt a (soft) atheism standpoint insofar as I simultaneously do not believe (as opposed to someone who is an agnostic and a believer, e.g.: "while it is the case that logically it cannot be proved, I subscribe to the religious POV"; and the agnostic strong atheist: "there's not, of course, but I can't prove it").

Think "Political Compass", with Authoritarian/Libertarian axis as well as standard Left/Right.  I tend to think of belief under Theism->Strong Atheism (Weak Atheism being centerline) on one axis, Gnosticism/Agnosticism along another axis ("I know" -> "I cannot know", with "I don't really know" in the middle), Apatheism opposed to Devotion on a third (insofar as the former directly opposes the tennet's of Pascal's Wager[1]) and possibly Evangalism/passivity on a fourth (if you shuffle the previous one around a bit to make room for the distinction).  Add more, to taste, possibly including an honesty/hypocritical distinction which might help distinguish certain televangelists from some other prominent preachers.

I site myself centrally under the Theism/Strong Atheism axis (I tend to look religously inclined to strong atheists, and a denial-type 'atheist' to theists, so it's soft atheism for me... explicitly soft because of my pondering, I suppose), strongly Agnostic (I am convinced that there is no logical way one could prove or disprove a god's existence, inclusive of apparent manifestations), a fair bit apatheist (in that I'm probably relying on earning merits for "he meant well" for any hypothetical checking of the boxes at whatever Pearly Gates equivalent I might attend, if that's what happens), far more Evangelist than I'd like (witness this convoluted explanation of my world-view) and I'm not sure about the honesty/hypocrit side (I'd like to say I'm honest, but then I would say that if I weren't, so it's not for me to say).


Kettle.  Fish.  Or barrel, thereof, to be shot into.  Your choice.

[1] If there's a God, He's going to know if you're worshipping "just in case", best to be true to yourself and not demerit yourself trying to cover your arse.  The middle ground may be those who will pay lip-service (or adjust their outward display of their internal belief) to whatever deity happens to be de jour without worry that it would be ultimately 'received' by an incompatible deity.  At the extreme Devout end, one would find the various martyrs to whatever cause exists.  Inclusive of Dawkins-esque types who devoutly display their explicit and strong non-belief (which, in some times and places would get you 'martyred' as quick, or quicker, than alternate beliefs).

12378
General Discussion / Re: Atheists
« on: September 22, 2009, 05:38:44 am »
I'm afraid everyone i know and all the internet resources i can uncover define Atheism as 'rejection of theism.' So apparently you're wrong, or the rest of the world is wrong.
No, it's just a predominant misconception among people who tend to argue against it.  Akin to Pagan==Devil Worshipper.  Or the whole Pro-Life lot being called Anti-Choice and the Pro-Choice being referred to as Pro-Death.  Or this whole silly business where Obama has "Death Panels", adding as fuel a few dissenting (and discredited) voices from the UK regarding a system that is never going to be perfect but works better than the absence of one[1], and can be adopted without the baggage of history and thus without the flaws).

As the future King Verence the Second told Duke Felmet (and probably many real-world people told many other real-world people) "Words have power".  And they can be wielded correctly or incorrectly.

If it's repeated often enough it may seem right, but its basis is all wrong then understanding suffers.  Imagine a world where it is accepted English grammar to use "I could of done this" as a phrase.  While English is mutable, I have no objection to neologisms or neologistic reuses of old words (after all, the words and grammar I'm using today would be strange to someone of Dr Johnson's time), but there are some steps (or leaps!) that really ought not to be taken so lightly.

So "A-theism" (not-aGodbeliever) and "Athe-ism" (notaGod-believer) is a battle-ground of understanding, for which it now seems we need to add the qualifier of "weak" (or soft) and "strong" (or hard).  [Edit: And of course the implicit/explicit thing, which I meant to mention]

My opinion, naturally.  Probably not worth arguing over, but F.Y.I.


[1] I remember an on-line conversation with someone in the US where they were complaining their nose wouldn't stop bleeding, but they didn't want to go to the local doctor/A&E/whatever because of the cost.  Sorry, a slight tangent with that exemplum.  Feel free to ignore.

12379
Other Games / Re: MUDs Discussion Thread
« on: September 22, 2009, 05:02:11 am »
I have this Jeanie thing logged on in the Discworld website, but I don't know any Jeanies, any idea on what this may be? (I asked on channel one and they said it a bug, I'll contact an admin later)
It's just a bug, if it's what I think you mean.  From what I understand (not having access ot the code behind the web-site/etc) I would presume it's easy problem to solve, but given that it hasn't been probably means that the area of conflict does something ComplicatedTM which means that it isn't so easy.  However, it doesn't affect anything of note (except that you get a link to a random user's 'finger' info), so you can ignore it for all intents and purposes.  It will correct itself almost immediately (the next click on the page, usually), and doesn't mean that you can post/view as that person or otherwise do kranky things to the system.

Consider it a serendipitous "friend-finder".  Every now and then it produces the name of someone random, and lets you link immediately to their Finger info so you can get to know about them, then next time you see them logged in you can stalk themsay hello! :)

12380
Other Games / Re: MUDs Discussion Thread
« on: September 21, 2009, 10:47:53 am »
You can have as many characters as you wish.  You can even exchange items an money between your characters, though you're not supposed to go overboard with this.  Don't be your own economy and you'll be fine.
Note that playing multiple characters at the same time should first of all not be possible, and is otherwise a no-no if you get around those restrictions and get found out.  It's fair play for items to be gifted remotely, by whatever means, though.  I personally try to maintain a Chinese Wall between all characters, inclusive of knowledge gained.  But that's an extreme POV.


Quote
Priests tend to be slightly hardish, but I have no experience with them.  They don't seem to be too hard as they have very accessible guildhouses.
The Ankh-Morpork temple to Fish isn't near the others (clustering in the 'faith quarter', as it were), but didn't seem to suffer too much from lack of recruits last time I thought to do a head-count, cross-compared with city of origin.

No idea how many of those are true-newbies who stumbled in, entranced by the write-up on the descriptions of each god, or just new-characters by those expanding their 'portfolio' of experience, but my most senior current character became a Fishite as a newbie, having not played for nearly a decade, i.e. since before the creation of the terrains and reorganisation of Ankh-Morpork, on top of everything else, so I was definitely green before I decided to turn aquamarine. :)

@Sappho: Doing nothing will earn you some XP.  Going to new places will earn you XP (though be careful in places that have warnings up, e.g. The Shades/Snail/Medina, and go too far out into the 'wilds' and you may find dangerous creatures like yeti).  Using various commands (especially your guild-specific ones and various craft-related ones you can pick up, type "commands" to see if you have any of those) that are GP-using will return you some XP (teaching skills will also give you XP, but that's probably not realistic when you're low on the ladder).

Frexample, a priest can pray, exchanging Guild Points for a proportionate amount of XP.  Although repeatedly praying will give reduce that proportion, so doing other things as well is advisable (different rituals, and different activities like sneaking/watching when you have enough GP to spend some on the non-faith activity concerned).

A lot of new players these days start up by finding (or stumbling upon) quests that these days give XP (indeed, they didn't use to, but they once did before that), and while I never did chase those (and tend not to use knowledge from one character to help another character along), there is now (a fairly recent change) an official quest hint/list thingy that a newbie could use.  (IIRC, my first completed quest in the 'modern' era, beyond the newbie area of the time, was "Polite Shopper".  I'd not even realised it was one.  But, then again, that was back when there wasn't XP either, just the CCCs).

I can think of one more way to get XP, and there's also the TM (TaskMaster) system where something you do (or try to do, but are on the edge of) enough may trigger a skills upgrade in the leaf (or one of the leafs) of the skills tree that the skill uses, which is XP-saving.  (One non-priest character of mine never advanced any faith-tree skill, but through mending the odd piece of clothing at the altar of Gapp ended up with a level of fa.po well into the double digits.  Though as he never intends to use faith, this might be considered useless for anything other than the next time he tries to mend clothes at the altar of Gapp. :))

12381
General Discussion / Re: Atheists
« on: September 21, 2009, 06:40:17 am »
Personally, I've addopted the humanitarian principles of christianity and discarded all the rest as myth.

You might as well "adopt the humanitarian principles of <insert random religion here> and discard all the rest as myth", or, indeed, just "adopt humanitarian principles".  Most religions come with "be good" or even "be generous" ideas within the other ideology, and you can't really give any of them the monopoly on the concept.  I'm reminded of various tales of someone saying "Thankyou, that's very Christian of you" to someone who had done them a good turn... and who was Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, whatever.

Right now can't think of any reason to "go religious", but I do like the idea of the 3rd Pillar Of Islam (IIRC), the one about charity (2.5% of one's welath, I think, in whatever form that wealth takes, money or goods).  I'd like to aspire to that, even if I wouldn't be doing it with the intention of honouring Allah or pursuing the other (more explicitly religious) four pillars.  Especially the Hajj, which I'd be unable to complete without conversion or a lot of hard work behind a duplicity.

But as I'm very much a WASP, and even then a couple of generations adrift from actively practicing and consider myself a (soft-)atheist, agnostic and apatheist (among other possible descriptions) I am therefore left to convince myself that when I'm no longer cash-poor and not reduced to merely donating my remaining assets (philosophy and imagination seem to be the order of the day, at the moment, as well as my technical experience that is being donated to (or at least shared with) to this place I'm voluntarily working at, right now), I'll reinstate my British Red Cross direct debit, or something along the same lines.

(Also, even as I am now, every November I will buy a poppy or three in support of the Royal British Legion, though I don't tend to buy the Big Issue.  I don't like most telesales charities, because they are way too pushy, and I neither use nor retrospectively pay for the christmas cards that some obscure charity has decided to send to me before every Christmas, unsolicited.  That's an issue of boundaries, and my conscience is clear.)

Actually, I just remembered, I also donate blood regularly.  But, again, I don't do it for any religious reason.  (Indeed, some religions have things against that.  Or at least receiving it.)  Not even sure if it's even more or less than the 2.5% 'possible' donation I could make, if I may raise the issue of the ?Zakah?, again.

12382
Other Games / Re: MUDs Discussion Thread
« on: September 21, 2009, 06:08:58 am »
Note: written prior to Rhodan's entry, but lost connection before posting.  Hence, some unintended repetition.

I'd say MUDs are more like those bat-and-ball brick breaking games and MMOs are more like some tennis game on the NES. [...]
I did say I was exagerating :)

Quote
90% of MUDs I run into are little more than picking one class out of dozens, a race out of dozens. Go in an area, type "k monster", then go in another area, type "k monster" until you level up.
Which is probably why I don't like '90% of MUDs' [<=unqualified guess] but I do the-one-I-won't-name-again-because-it'll-look-like-I'm-obsessed. :)
Numberchasing happens there to any degree the player wishes, but there are RPers as well (who may or may not have numberchased their character to the level they are at... or just used idleXP and other non-combat, and not even killed an in-game bunny-rabbit).  And unless you apply to become PK (and/or join and sufficiently advance through one of the PK-only guild structures, e.g. assassins and that wizard subset that I forget the name of), you can't be griefed that way.  (And griefing in general (especially anything 'ingenius' that breaks the PK/NPK barrier) is frowned upon and dealt with by player-controlled and, if necessary, admin measures.)

With an initial seven 'lives', but the ability to get more (by in-game means only, no need to expend Roundworld Cash) I suppose it sits in your "semi-permadeath" category, so I've got no comeback on that point.  But as the "five-year-old long-term characters" are generally overwhelming nice, if not full on helpful, and there are actually far older characters who are no less welcoming, you can only consider it a clique if you don't really mesh with those who are there.

(Not to say that there's not arguments among the regulars...  Try asking whether or not female characters should be able to be wizards, or whether the pantheon of gods should be more like the books, or the Warrior's' Guild (or its subsets) should have a player-run administration in charge, etc. :))

12383
DF General Discussion / Re: Bugs DF would be worse off without?
« on: September 18, 2009, 12:03:55 pm »
Spoiler Alert

--contextless, for the FNU.

12384
DF General Discussion / Re: Bugs DF would be worse off without?
« on: September 17, 2009, 11:54:35 am »
...and given us things like ninja elephants and infernal carp.
If that's a reference to one of my own past posts, it was ninja hippos.

If not, carry on.  And I shall be interested in seeing how the ninja hippo clan fare against the ninja elephant clan. :)

(Possible replies to the title question will be made once I've read more of the thread!)

12385
DF Gameplay Questions / Re: Marksdwarf training?
« on: September 17, 2009, 11:49:14 am »
http://dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Exploit#Recycling_Archery_Range

Wiki says channel between target and wall.
Yep, though I tend to put channels to the side as well.  To catch the dabbling marksdwarfs' bolts that go really askew.  See the bolt(s?) in my screenshot lying nine tiles away from the rear wall, having drifted two tiles over (the second for the impact) for ~13 tiles travel down-range.

And I also use the channels as 1-tile demarkations of an individual range-room to pack them in as an alley.  Though under that system I've seen a misaimed bolt fly off at an angle to hit the next, or next-but-one target over and shatter on the floor in front of them, as well as those that fly between the gaps to be 'saved' by the channel in front of the back wall.  It could actually drift several targets over at extreme-length ranges with a sufficient width of butts (and propbably has happened, but I don't tell to sit staring at my potential marksdwarfs practicing...  well, not that much :)).

12386
DF Gameplay Questions / Re: Marksdwarf training?
« on: September 17, 2009, 10:55:28 am »
...Dig a channel in front of your archery targets...

Since replying to that, I have been wondering...

Code: [Select]
######
#____#
#_X+_#
#__+_#
#_++_#
#_+__#
#_+__#
#_+__#
#_+__#

Would that support a 'range room' and save all bolts (by Z-level dropping), even the ones that hit the target?

Must try it, when I remember about this and am in front of a computer with DF on it.  (Or else, if you know yay/nay, feel free to comment. :))

12387
Other Games / Re: MUDs Discussion Thread
« on: September 17, 2009, 10:48:29 am »
I was having isues with drawing a freaking sword, I'd type wield sword or get sword from bucket and it wouldn't work so I'd have to type get short sword.
I'm not playing at the moment, for various reasons (can waste my time browsing the web, but not MUDding ast the moment, much to my regret), but I can't think why this would be happening.  Unless you had another sword-but-not-named-sword, e.g. a scimitar, that was lying on the ground, somehow intercepting your parser's "sword" request but not actually available to "wield"...  Something like that.  (Sounds wrong, but best guess.)

As for "get sword from bucket"... nope, can't think of a reason why that wouldn't work (if the sword, any sword, was inside the bucket...  or did you have two buckets?  "get sword from bucket 2" might have worked in that case, or a variant thereof...).

But then for a long time I've had appropriate scabbards/belt loops/dagger scabbards or the like from which I can "draw sword", "draw mace", "draw dagger into left hand; draw stilletto into right hand" or whatever combination of available weapons, scabbards and skills I was working with at the time (I think at times I've strained my carrying ability and STR attribute by having dagger-scabbard boots on, a pair of regular dagger scabbards, a dagger-belt, a couple of full scabbards suited for long/curved weapons and a belt loop for a mace, though never tried a stave-holding think at the same time...  even if possible, that would have been impractical :)).  Actually, that was mostly aliased, but (drilling down) that's the basics behind it.

Maybe you could have checked on the talker channels.  Or, if still not too old, the 'official' helpers via the inbuilt newbiehelper system.  They're very good, and while they won't hand-hold they will often do what they can to help you overcome difficulties and reach Enlightenment.

12388
General Discussion / Re: Atheists
« on: September 17, 2009, 10:26:00 am »
It's easy to ask questions that can't be answered, or that are meaningless. "Why X exists" is one of those type of questions, usually. Not because we don't know the answer, but because, there might not even BE a why.
[snip]

I tend to go for "how" over "why", but that's more because I tend towards there being either no purpose, or else no purpose that we could ever understand in context.  But we can drill down the "how" as far back as the causation can be analysed/derived and still makes sense to us, regardless of whether:
  • ...the causation was done purposefully to the end effect we see,
  • ...purposefully but with the end effect we see as an unforseen consequence/side-effect/accidental alternate result to the original purpose,
  • ...just 'because' in a fire-and-forget situation where there was no ulterior purpose, or
  • ...merely the result of the way the universe is, and that's the end of it.

12389
Other Games / Re: MUDs Discussion Thread
« on: September 17, 2009, 08:12:53 am »
Hmm tried out discworld and to be honest I'm not to impressed. The commands are even more anal than hellmoo (like in discworld you can't just abreviate the item you have to pretty much type it out). I'll probably try to play it a bit more later but as of right now not to impressed.
Nounwise[1], yes/no.  Full (inserted-edit: by which I mean "full-enough")words, of course, but "jacket" instead of "studded leather jacket" should work.  Unless it mistakes your shorthand for something else.

Where you tend to get problems is if you try to attack a "thin man" (having made sure he's not a Guild enforcer/some other NPC you really don't want to attack) and "kill man", only to have that interpreted as meaning the man that is (fully described as) a "fat priest" of Sandelfon, or whatever, when you happen to be allergic to being teleported into Endless Halls, or otherwise wouldn't want to fight them.

But then that's a human interface things, and a good argument for not abbreviating what you can type in.  Unless you set up aliases to "k tm" => kill thin man" or something, in which case that's your responsibility.  Not sure how much looser you would want a parser.  It's bad enough when you drop and bury the wrong backpack because you didn't set "keep" on it. :)

[1] i.e. other than this you can "l thing" instead of "look at thing", and "ex thing" instead of "examine thing".  And when referencing the skills tree "crafts.smithing.black" can be described as "cr.sm.bl" (though with "cr.poi" and "cr.pot" would be needed for points and pottery suboptions of that tree, to make sure you're not learning/teaching the other one, whichever is the default interpretation of "cr.po", I forget).

12390
DF Gameplay Questions / Re: Marksdwarf training?
« on: September 17, 2009, 05:47:55 am »
On recovering bolts:

Dig a channel in front of your archery targets.  For some reason, when a projectile hits anything that it doesn't get stuck in, it is destroyed - UNLESS there is room for it to fall one z-level.  So if you dig a channel in front of your targets, bolts will hit them, bounce off, and land on the floor below.e it all into profitable merchandise instead of pulverized dust on the wall.
In front of?  I was under the impression (may very well be wrong) that the archery 'room', like all others, could not carry over (except for 'border') barriers such as channels (/walls/doors not set to internal).  Or am I misinterpretting this and you mean what I would suggest is 'behind the target'?

Hmm, I think I have some screenshots of my archery ranges, somewhere on a memory stick (embedded within the full fortress exports).  Let me do some editing and uploading...


Spoiler (click to show/hide)


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