Bay 12 Games Forum

As Ukraine comes under increased attack from the air without increasing ability to defend itself in that regard, one frequently wonders why such a vulnerability to civilians from that layer has not been rectified to a greater degree. I have heard on the news that "dumb" bombs are being used on cities, so Ukrainians appear to have need for at a minimum for defensive equipment systems that can drive off mid and high altitude fast moving aircraft, but I am not an expert on those things.

Ukraine actually 'natively' has mid/high-altitude AA systems, courtesy of their soviet legacy and some basic upgrading (because Russia is short of any really fancy stealth stuff). Western systems are being employed to fill in at the low-level, with man-portable launchers, etc.

The following are silly suggestions after considering Russia is launching planes from Belarus anyways but if the problem is still "logistics" for the Mig29s is it possible to modify them with a jettisonable float for a one time seaplane takeoff, or is it legal to convert one of the seized oligarch yachts into a one time launch platform or carrier conversion?

Floats on a typical modern jet fighter/multirole aircraft..? Unless designed in (e.g. the Ekranoplan, which is a jet-seaplane that doesn't even expect to properly fly) I can't see that making any sense, except as an aderenaline-rush for some bored jet-jockey with loads of experience (and far less sense) to try once. Twice if the first time actually worked.

If you look at the kind of things that were built (in a few cases, often no further than prototypes) or designed, you'll see that jet planes intended for aquatic/amphibious roles are basically flying-boats (buoyancy designed into the airframe) rather than sea-planes (buoyancy available as undercarriage). There are challenges to water-take-off that a Mach-capable plane (therefore needs a relatively high take-off speed) wouldn't work well with, even with a jettisonable float which would need to be designed and tested given that it's not been too many people's answer to any serious question when you can design for carrier-launching instead.

Rigging a superyacht with a carrier-sized flight-deck (not just helo-pad) would also need plenty of yard-time even to create sufficient launch-deck (with catapult system?) but which you'd have to lift your planes onto as there's not enough to land. Seems like a good way to get through your stock of airworthy planes, and those that remain airworthy (after take-off, mission and then finding somewhere to land) need a lot of effort to set up for a second such jaunt.

What was the reason for this, again? It's not that Russia has air-supremacy over land (which it doesn't) but for some reason the Black Sea Fleet isn't checking everything it can within Ukrainian territorial waters...

In addition, this attack was carried out by aircraft mounting cruise missiles according to the NY times. I would guess those can launch from outside the range of anti-air defenses. I imagine that complicates things a great deal, and I am not knowledgeable enough to know whether interceptors could have intercepted them or not.

Realistically, plane-launched cruise-missiles may well be dropped from the planes well outside Ukrainian airspace. This may possibly be in range of (any surviving) AA batteries or intercepters stationed near the ground border, but does mean firing into (Belo)Russian skies. Something I think even Ukrainian pilots/gunners might not do without pause, and if it was a third-party doing it it would be seized upon as an attack on Russian territory (regardless of the justification).

You ideally want to shoot the plane before it looses the missile, also, and (as Russia/its 'local' forces discovered) shooting a plane that might be on totally innocent business causes a lot of fuss. Russia can be (has been) brazen-necked about that sort of thing when it makes it happen, but would also probably take full advantage of any hint of doubt if even a 'training flight' is clipped of its wings by 'western aggressors'.


The best thing to do, really, is to keep the Ukrainians supplied with as much air-defence/iron-done-style equipment as possible and let them work out how to deploy it to their best effort. (In fact, if anyone else started patrolling up there, there is potential for IFF to go wrong. The protectors ending up being targetted/enemies being assumed friendly, either case reducing their current home-grown capabilities to use their ground-based AA systems.)

Did you hear about the cannibal children?  Their parents told them to stop playing with their food.

The only alternative to cannibalism is to make a false dichotomy!

I still haven't seen anything about those "I was looting, Ma - and look what I picked up!" tapes. Not gonna trawl reddit for them, especially if that's the only account. I'd hope that their mothers might be a little concerned that they're freely exercising a five-fingered discount option, even/especially in "obviously Russian territory, all hail Putin!" places. Must be a nicer way to possibly jolt them out of acquiescently accepting the Party Line on what they find is going on in a place they might not expect their beloved sons to be, if it goes that far, than to get the telegram/home-visit to suggest their offspring are now unlikely to return home with even just a breath in their body. However they handle such news.

But I suspect that those who are still susceptible to the likes of Lavrov's lies won't budge, and those who are already more likely to be skeptical or downright critical (which seems to be more of a thing in the young, but may still encompass some of the mothers of those now at conscript-age and beyond) were probably already suspicious about the official spin and this just confirms it.


That's just a blind assessment, though, perhaps with too much of a Westerner's typical form of cynicism towards those who wield the power of one's own state. I've never really had to adjust to incessant NewSpeak or suppress any possibility of ThoughtCrime, like clearly Vlad (and at least some of his predecessors) has spent time trying to nurture and/or demand in His people.

The 'exercises' on their territory were a joint-affair. But obviously they weren't actually intending to then procede to invade ("nor did anyone"!), as well.

Probably gives Luka a black mark in Putin's little book of allies.

I can't even work out what the situation is, as described, McT. Definitely a needlessly complicated system, from my perspective in a far simpler taxable situation.

(When I had some of my company's shares, as a business-matched lay-away scheme thing that came straight out of my UK salary but put towards US-based stocks held by DeutscheBank (IIRC), the fuss it took to actually get the value back out of them afterwards... It needed all kinds of weird tax-forms, most of them for the IRS, like a WD40/whatever. Some form of administrative lubricant, definitely!)

Given Putin is now calling for foreign volunteers to fight (his cause) in Ukraine, in the definitely-not-a-war, I think he's getting (conventionally) desperate. Or at the very least looking to muddy the waters, with some suitable patsies might handily set up as Western-backed "foreign legionaries", at a crucial point. I mean, who is to say which side random Syrian mercenaries are on, after they get 'caught' committing atrocities, for example.

(Even without that, this could end up looking like a perverted version of the Spanish Civil War of the late 1930s. Which was a limited beta-release of WW2, of course.)

Quote from: McTraveller on March 10, 2022, 06:32:30 pm

If this quote is real...

Quote from: Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov

We are not planning to attack other countries.  We did not attack Ukraine either.

Do words even have meaning any more?

Russian government words? Nah, they don't have any meaning or value at all.

We've always never been at war with Eurasia.

...if Ukraine doesn't exist, it cannot have been invaded, right?

(Noting that they're far from accomplishing that end, discounting escalations that would reduce the viability of Russia too.)

PPE:

Russia has asked the UN Security Council to convene about 'the military biological activities of the US on Ukrainian territory'.

Looks like they think they have fabricated accumulated a sufficient amount of alibi for their actions. I don't think that they'll get a ready reception for it, but maybe they'll sway some states to be less critical of them. It'll be interesting to see how it swings.

Are you the Ukrainian leadership? Because last time I checked, I was having a conversation with some random people in a (game's) forum.

I'm willing to give you the benefit of doubt, what with the problems of text-only communications but you just keep coming after me for things that I either never said or you just misunderstood.

I definitely am a random person[1], and it was in an effort to understand your stance that I tried to understand your comments. It seems I may not be the only one to misunderstand another person's position. Or at least be unable to work out what is trying to be said. (I took care to spell everything out, but I know this often puts me into TL;DR; territory, for many people. Which I'll excuse you for, if so.)

Especially as I think we're broadly on the same side, obscurity of specific arguments aside.


[1] As an example of the comprehension disjoint, I don't recall you telling me to shut up, so I had no idea you thought I was claiming to be those that you were. To be honest, I'd take less offence (practically none!) if you had asked me to do so directly, rather than carp on about your ideas of bullshit coming from others, which I still consider shown as not being so.