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Messages - Joutilas

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1
Other Games / Re: A Game of Dwarves
« on: January 20, 2012, 02:15:31 am »
It is about the time someone took the core concept of DF and you know, made an actual game out of it.

May your game sell buckets, and may every bucket be deduced from Toady's donation income.

2
The new website is bad.

I used to enjoy reading the dev_log, but damn. If that background is to stay, then no more.

It is trying to give me migraine and an epileptic seizure at the same time.

For those who think that it is okay, why doesn't this forum's colour selection include those nice, bright colours?

3
If you want to square this further with how things work, the king doesn't know very much about what is going on over there, and is taking the liaison's recommendation, which you are providing to the liaison.  Generally they'd send someone external over there, but now they are rewarding your efforts.

As a suggestion, maybe there could also be scenarios where the king is not satisfied with the performance of your dwarfs (i.e. you) and therefore appoints somebody external without consulting you (possibly with suitably malignant personality).

4
Using terms like "doctor" or "surgeon" bothers me somewhat. I'd use a more archaic term that doesn't have so strong link to modern medicine. Chirurgeon? Barber surgeon?

Or then have "progression" for the titles: healer -> bone-mender -> doctor -> chirurgeon

5
DF Suggestions / Re: Military dwarves getting strange moods
« on: December 04, 2008, 04:50:14 pm »
Hmm... I have to agree with some previous posters, in my opinion wanderlust or questing doesn't fit dwarves. It would be the perfect way for making, say humans, stand out as playable race though.

My perception of dwarves may be a bit warhammer-ish, but I feel that harboring a grudge would be more dwarven for the military dwarf.

"Urist McDwarf demands justice!"
"A dwarven warband has embarked for Spikenails, the dark fortress!"

Basically a dwarf gets fed up with his/her friends dying in the hands of <insertrace/animal> and instigates a group of other dwarfs to join him/her on a "crusade" on the hated foe. So player has a few moments to organize the group and arm them, or they'll leave naked (crusade of children style...).

They might come back with spoils of war and stories to tell. Or then nobody will live to tell the tale.

Naturally this would require some of the reqs of the army arc as well.

6
DF Suggestions / Re: Artifacts - An Expansion
« on: October 21, 2008, 04:55:05 pm »
Actually I could very well see dwarves having legends on useless items, like floodgates. It's hu-manly to be obsessed with magic swords that slay dragons.

Quote
In 232, Badnails the Obsidian Floodgate created by master mason Gimp McDwarfly.
In 234, Badnails the Obsidian Floodgate was installed in the lower hallways of forbidding smells.
In 237, Badnails the Obsidian Floodgate inspired Urist McDorf to create the poem “Sloth of Plump Helmets”
In 239, Badnails the Obsidian Floodgate crushed Gimli McDwarfing, town drunk, to death.
In 240, Badnails the Obsidian Floodgate was covered in Gobbo Goblinus vile blood during “The Vile Attack”
In 248, Badnails the Obsidian Floodgate started talking to Urist McCrazy.
In 248, Badnails the Obsidian Floodgate defaced by Urist McCrazy.
In 248, loss of Badnails the Obsidian Floodgate caused the abandonment of fortress Roughrocks.

7
DF Suggestions / Re: Advanced personalities and evolving culture
« on: October 19, 2008, 03:59:09 am »
I edited the first post to better reflect the direction the discussion has been going towards.

BTW: looking at the current dev. notes, imagine entering dwarven hell where all the miscreants of your previous fortress are locked in, suffering from their crimes ;-)

8
DF Suggestions / Re: Perversion
« on: October 11, 2008, 07:45:08 am »
Joutilas, got a suggestion for the Inquisition?

I'm not totally sure how it'd fit into Toady's vision, but maybe somethink akin to "Inquisition" would be applicable - with or without the religious connotations that the term has. They could be in charge of weeding out the heretics/traitors/rebels amongst the dwarven populace as well as interrogating prisoners. After all, at the moment you don't have much to do with all the goblin prisoners you get.

Interrogating prisoners could bring some information about incoming attacks and would be more useful once the politics arc is in place.

Inqusition should be led by noble who has apprentices helping him out. They would take over prisoner management from normal peasants, and would required workshop of their own. Somethink akin to Joe Abercrombie's "The Blade Itself" would be quite cool ;)

9
DF Suggestions / Re: Perversion
« on: October 10, 2008, 01:48:06 am »
Maybe there are certain "design" choises that increase the likelihood of "bad apples" developing. Like not having a fortress guard/sheriff (or not having a jail), having a huge gap between the poor and the nobility etc. Just like in normal society.

Come on, you really expect that the constant slaughter of puppies and the horrible "accidents" that face the nobility will have no effect on the dwarven psyche? ;)

Actually, the desensitization is a good case example of cultural development within the fortress that could lead into negative traits becoming more commonplace (sadism, misanthropy). It's partially affecting all the dwarves, but only the ones who have their "dark side" already will fall to their negative traits.

We already have quite a few characteristics that could act as hints for finding out potential troublemakers (doesn't like working with others, dislikes authority, likes tentacle demons etc.). Now the trouble would be that two thirds of them are false flags. The guy just happens to like demons, thats all!

If you expand the negative traits enough, then in theory everyone could have their dark side. Naturally only a fraction of this would be revealed in normal cases, but if things start REALLY going to the wrong direction, then all hell would break loose (a.k.a. decadent fortress).

And what a legendary ending for a fortress that would be :)

10
DF Suggestions / Re: Perversion
« on: October 09, 2008, 09:31:03 am »
Yeah, this is definately not a thing that needs to be implemented tomorrow, there are quite a few more pressing issues to be fixed before that ;)

Just a part of how I envision the endgame being: you are less and less in charge of day to day operations, delegating more of those responsibilities to various managers, leaders and guildmasters. It would be more about shaping the society itself - what is unique about this fortress, where do they put more resources?

And of course stepping in when you start reaping the rewards (half of my dwarves have been revealed revealed as a part of demonic cult, oh-noes!)

I just find the thought very intriguing - instead of micromanaging 300 dwarfs, you're actually guiding the culture of the fortress with indirect actions. It'd definately add in some flavour to mature fortress, and would prevent the usual simcity syndrome (once your city is running well enough, you're just sitting there and waiting for a massive disaster).

Funnily enough, Dwarf Fortress is pretty much the only game that comes to my mind where such is possible - and this is only due to the clever way that Toady has built the framework for the game (hats off to that!).

11
DF Suggestions / Advanced personalities and evolving culture
« on: October 09, 2008, 03:35:42 am »
Expanded from original thread “Perversion”

One of my all-time favorites, Medieval: Total War gave me an idea for DF's future development.

Currently, we have all-seeing knowledge of our Dwarfs inner thinking’s. One way to add additional flavor to them would be to include hidden traits that won't be normally revealed - in similar fashion as you have in Medieval with the nobles.

Currently, the personalities of the dwarfs are not really present in the game. They do a wonderful job in making our imagination soar as we read their profiles, but don’t really affect the game that much. The idea of this post is to visualize some ways they could be expanded to really make the dwarfs personalities stand out and also affect the direction the fortress is heading to.

My vision for this is based on two main suggestions:

  • Hidden personality traits
  • Evolving culture

Hidden personality traits:

Currently, the player has total access to the most intimate thoughts and inner workings of a dwarf. While this contributes a lot to the “all-seeing-bene(/male)volent cave-spirit” but detracts from the playing experience. I like to think that the player is no smarter or knowledgeable than all the dwarfs combined, and in this way there simply are some things that no-dwarf knows. Hidden characteristics have already been suggested, so I won’t argue the case further, but rather will concentrate on the uses they could have.

My original thought was that the hidden traits would be mostly negative ones, such as:

Sadism - Urist McNoughty takes secret pleasure in inflicting pain upon others. If assigned to military duty, he tends to have more "accidents" while sparring. If hunting, he likes to take his time with his kills. And if assigned to the dwarven inquisition - he'll be very happy.

Deviant - Urist McKinky has unnatural liking for Elves. He spends way too much time in the trading depot whenever elven merchants are present - even though he's not trading or hauling!
(Can be linked to probability of indulging in this ->
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=21189.0 )

Heretic - Urist McGoth prefers to engrave demons devouring dwarves. He is often seen in the secluded parts of the fort, holding private parties with like-minded individuals. Cats and dogs have started to go missing in the fort...

Sober - Urist McWeird seems to never visit the alcohol deposit. In fact, the still has had weird malfunctions ever since he settled in the fort...

Infiltrator - Urist McFriendly doesn't like to talk about his past. On his breaks, he spends a lot of time observing the fortress defenses. For some odd reason, nobody from his migrant group seems to really know him.

Anarchist - Ever since Urist McPunk settled in, the nobles have started having non-player related accidents. Their expensive rooms have been defaced; artifacts have gone missing from their rooms. What could be the cause?

Thief - Urist McGreedy likes shiny things - even beyond dwarven standards. A lot of expensive ores, gems and trade goods have gone missing. The traders are complaining that we're attempting to swindle them

Misanthropy - Urist McLonely has no friends, but he holds a lot of grudges. For some odd reason, he is on his most happiest during the darkest times. He attends a lot of funerals.

Necrophilia - Our ancestors graves have been defiled in unthinkable manner. The relatives of the deceased are in outrage. Accusations are flying wildly.

..etc.

Further discussion on the topic made me realize that they could also be expanded to include positive/neutral characteristics. You can see it as hidden potential, which is only surfaced in certain situations. Depending on the implementation, the dwarf might gain a positive “perk” that shows up in their profile once specific criteria are met.

Personally I imagine this occurring in extreme situations – when the dwarf is pushed to do something they’d not attempt in ordinary situations, their hidden potential would be surfaced. Normally the trait wouldn’t affect them, or in the most it would only have a miniscule effect that is hard to notice.

An example: McWoodcutter is cutting wood with his colleagues, when a goblin ambush arrives. The ambush fires arrow at the woodcutting party, wounding a hauler mortally. The civilians flee in panic, but McWoodcutter puts his ax aside and makes a mad dash towards to the wounded hauler. Despite the hail of arrows, he grabs the wounded dwarf, carrying him to safety in his back. If McWoodcutter survives, he gains a perk of “bravery” as he has realized his true potential and the criteria are met.

Evolving culture:

Idea behind the concept of “evolving culture” is that player’s actions have an effect on the way that the fortress develops. This would be demonstrated through the development of the dwarfs inside the fortress. Upon birth (generation), every dwarf would get a set of hidden personality traits. Just like in Medieval, in beginning those traits wouldn’t be visible. After all, the dwarfs are way too busy trying to survive to indulge in their dark sides or to search their inner potential.

But once the fortress grows and dwarfs have more idle time, the traits start to become more predominant. Eventually the dwarf will start affecting others around them, creating a kind of a snowball effect. So an anarchist/rebel will start to instigate anti-governmental movement, activating other dwarfs that have similar hidden traits. If they are not stopped, the group will start to affect also dwarfs that don’t have the specific hidden trait, but have the suitable personality traits (dislikes authority etc.).

To explain the sudden influx of dwarfs sharing the same hidden trait can also be explained quite simply – if one of the original seven dwarfs is secretly worshipping demons, they will attract more similar dwarfs’ in the future migrant groups. Some of the traits would naturally be more individual, such as infiltrators or pyromaniacs (though would be fun to see a cult of fire-loving dwarfs running the fort), so they wouldn’t affect “normal” dwarfs.

Now, there can also be several ways to avoid those perversions (like in Medieval). You could for example start a dwarven inquisition who weeds out the rotten individuals or appoint a dwarf to reform miscreants. Obviously those methods would also have a negative effect (incl. cultural) as well. And like in Medieval, you'll never be totally able to avoid them as they are a part of individual’s personality.

Some of those traits would improve greatly, if there would be also "natural occurrences" of certain suspicious things. So the player would never be totally sure of the cause of certain things (e.g. if corpses are disturbed in the graves, it can be a) thief, b) corpse-lover, c) cultists using them for rituals, d) wild animals).

So if one of your dwarfs is doing weird things, you’ll never be totally sure if it is just the broken AI acting up, or if the dwarf is up to something… After all, paranoia is fun and extremely dwarven!

Generally the bad-bad things would start happening at the end game, when the infrastructure is solidly in place and the game is otherwise starting to be too easy. The idea behind “evolving culture” is that player basically is reaping what they’ve been sowing. The fortress population forms their norms through the design choices the player has been making though the years. The way of living shapes up the personalities of the dwarfs inside the fort, and they start to value certain things whilst disliking others.

For example, if you never appoint a sheriff (that lives through the season), never have any fortress guards or build jails, your fort would go into a certain direction that can ultimately lead to total anarchy. Or if all the resources of the fortress go to making steel weapons and armor, whilst the naked dwarfs eat raw fish and sleep on cold stone… Well, THIS IS MADDNESS! Or if you have a massive cloth industry, decking out colorful clothes, at some point dwarf fashion would emerge.

In all of those cases, certain set of values would be formed. Ultimately this can lead to wars, rebellions and general mayhem. Or legendary dwarven civilization that’ll last decades.

This would add a totally new layer to the game. You wouldn’t just be thinking about taking care of the basic needs of your dwarfs, but also about the consequences that your design choices will have. Late game emergence of hidden traits would give something to look forward even in a mature fortress.

Obviously this is all quite far in the future still, seeing that there are quite a few more pressing matters to be addressed in the game. Hopefully this thread will still be able to give Toady some fresh ideas when thinking about the future of the game. Dwarf Fortress is after all the only game I can think of that could implement this idea – as the framework for it is mostly in place already.

12
DF Suggestions / Re: Digging Enemies.
« on: October 07, 2008, 09:56:26 am »
Quote
Well. If the previously kidnapped dwarves (which would take a whole heck of a lot of time to mature) were to come back when the raid appears, how would they get inside? At that point, a non-friendly/uncontrollable dwarf is a different symbol, isn't he? You just assume it's a friendly? Wouldn't someone notice "hey, I don't recognize him?" And if you've already closed your gates, how does he get in in the first place? Does he arrive early? Then let's take it back a step: wouldn't people notice an unfamiliar face that nobody knows after a while? Especially one who doesn't act as he should? (having been raised by goblins, there would be differences in the way he acts, and as he isn't your dwarf, he wouldn't always do as is asked)

Obviously the dwarf doesn't have to come from your fortress' kidnapped kids. They would come with a group of normal migrants, pretending to be just another peasant/cheese maker.

The infiltrator dwarf would could give some cues about their true agenda in their profile, and also do some suspicious actions (ignoring work orders, spending breaks in odd places etc.). But as this would be happening at late game, it wouldn't be so easy to spot for those players who don't care so much about individual dwarfs.

Hard-core implementation of this would be that the dwarf comes years before the sieges, revealing their true face once you'd already got them to legendary level in skills (or in worst case, decked out with steel)

13
DF Suggestions / Re: Digging Enemies.
« on: October 07, 2008, 01:12:32 am »
Another way to approach sieges - subterfuge.

Your fortress gets hundreds of immigrants. Goblins can abduct and raise dwarfs as thier own...

"A vile force of dwarkness has appeared!"

and

"Your gates are brought open by treachery from within!"

Now that would be some FUN :)

14
DF Suggestions / Re: Digging Enemies.
« on: October 03, 2008, 01:36:47 am »
Digging needs to be in.

As practical implementation, maybe the game can cache paths of the dwarfs. This way, as enemy begins as siege and you raise your bridges/close your floodgates, they'd concentrate on the cached path. (Ladders, grappling hooks, battering rams etc.)

If the siege squad comes with sappers/miners, they'd look for the a) shortest path inside the fortress and b) easiest to dig (soft soil over fortified walls). This would probably be also from a direction that is less often referenced in the cache (no point in digging in from the front gate where all the fortifications are)

Naturally the breach/sap troops wouldn't apppear untill late in the game (to simulate the enemy learning your fort defences). Maybe one could even delay/prevent this by stopping enemy from reaching strategic locations and escaping the map.

15
DF Suggestions / Re: Underground Diversity
« on: October 03, 2008, 01:25:58 am »
Just suspend your disbelief; it's indestructible with current technology.

My take on UD

Chaos/Evil/Dark (etc.) Dwarves

Currently, underground is a bit boring as there is very little life there. I think it'd add quite bit into DF setting if the deep bowels of earth were inhabited by intelligent creatures.

Also, currently dwarves hold the unparalled technological edge in DF universe. To challenge them, one could introduce a corrupt offspring of the dwarven race. They dwell deep underground without ever entering the surface. Their societies are a corrupt version of dwarven values, based on slavery and bitter thoughts created from extended periods of being sober.

One would encounter the chaos/dark/evil dwarves late in the game, either by digging into their underground city (or a small part of it) or by encountering their scouting party (which enters by digging into the map from an edge).

I probably wouldn't go stealing directly from D&D / Warhammer, but rather creating something that fits into DF lore. Just think of what would be the opposite of the current dwarven society and add some unique touches.

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