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Messages - wierd

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1051
General Discussion / Re: AmeriPol thread
« on: May 20, 2021, 02:29:47 pm »
Not actually correct-- the freedom of expression of belief, is a constitutional right.

What they are NOT allowed to do, is lynch people, deny jobs, or burn crosses on lawns.  They can be as racist as they like, however.

Free association is ALSO a constitutional right.  That means they ARE entitled to their KKK keg party. (Just so long as it does not include lynchings, beatings, murder, extortion, cross burnings, denying jobs or housing, et al.)  Them just getting together to drink beer and complain about all the black people, is perfectly legal, and protected.

1052
General Discussion / Re: AmeriPol thread
« on: May 20, 2021, 02:25:00 pm »
Quote
spe·cial plead·ing
/ˈspeSHəl ˈplēdiNG/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: special pleading

    argument in which the speaker deliberately ignores aspects that are unfavorable to their point of view.
    "he has produced a piece of special pleading that does not wholly stand up"
        appeals to give a particular interest group special treatment.
        "we heard his special pleading for his constituency"


Insisting that the only actions that could have merit to the people that passed the bill in Tenn, must be actions done in Tenn, is indeed special pleading.  It is so, because it ignores outside actions, because they are unfavorable to the position you already hold.

Again, the thing they should dial back on is the anger and vitriol in full public display on public places (as they are not as insular and gated as they like to think they are, and stoke these fires quite intensely), and they should avoid playing the part of the Karen, whenever and wherever possible.

The mainstream media takes even the most miniscule numbers of such incidents, and magifies the public perception of them millions of times over.

That amplification has real effects.

1053
General Discussion / Re: AmeriPol thread
« on: May 20, 2021, 02:16:35 pm »
We live in a period of time where region is less important to an identity.  Asking for specific instances in Tenn is special pleading.

Rather, the people in Tenn should be viewed in this light:

They have seen instances such as the infamous wedding cake incident. They have seen a rise in such incidents in the mainstream (eg, national) media.  The only power they have to (in their misguided view) protect their agency, is at their own state level.

They passed a series of state laws.

1054
General Discussion / Re: AmeriPol thread
« on: May 20, 2021, 01:50:31 pm »
Did you not read my first post to vector to the end sir?

Does your reading comprehension skills have such deficit that you are unable to see how your arrogant stance that I must be for "ZERO PUSHING!", when I have outright stated against that, and instead been suggesting a different form of pushing this entire goddamn time, is a strawman?

I am not your enemy here. 


As for "Who is Karen"--

"What is Karen" is a better question.

"Karen" is a pejorative term used to describe an entitled person (usually a white female), who demands special exemptions to established rules or social conventions, for entirely self-serving reasons. They often demand to speak to the manager, and cause nothing but grief and misery to everyone else around them, until they get their way.  They tend to be universally loathed.

1055
General Discussion / Re: AmeriPol thread
« on: May 20, 2021, 01:27:43 pm »
Another constructive question!

The amount they should ask for, is simply equal treatment. (as opposed to 'protected' treatment.)

That is to say, "We do not want to be disadvantaged", vs "I want a special exception to existing rules."


For a personal example-- in my state, you have to have a dependent child in order to claim being a head of household. This is not only a direct lockout against people who are sterile and want children, or against gay people that are in some other way excluded from adoption services (due to other bullshit), but also fundementally affects asex people like myself, who only have the single income, and will only ever have the single income, and have all the bills other people have.

Rather than say "I want an asex exemption to this rule!!!", you should instead go "I want this rule to be re-evaluated, because it is exclusionary. I want the same treatment that people with kids get."

Often times, people who have an alternative sexuality become.. how to put this without being offensive?.... "Demanding?"..  One big place this happens, is vis-a-vis, people with regressive religious faiths and practices.  Demanding that a religious institution host a gay wedding is not a victory. It is the forced imposition of compelled service against another party's will-- as an example.  Demanding the loss of somebody's agency, to satisfy a want, is improper, and an over-reach.  Every Time.

The LGBT community tends to have this notion that "You cannot go too far!" when dealing with people who hold regressive views-- religious people especially.  This leads to situations where you cause serious offense, and circumstances brew to cataclysmic levels, and shit gets real, like Tenn.

Much like it would be completely improper for a black family run bakery to be compelled to make cakes for a KKK kegger party-- it is improper to compel a religious family run bakery to make your wedding cake.

That is demanding a special exemption, not equity, and is using the court system to compel somebody to service they do not wish to provide, which is a violation of agency.

1056
General Discussion / Re: AmeriPol thread
« on: May 20, 2021, 01:07:16 pm »
FINALLY, A CONSTRUCTIVE QUESTION!
(and since I happen to be asexual, and thus AM A PART OF THE LGBT, I can answer meaningfully too!!)

To me, my orientation is not even accepted well even in the LGBT cadre, and is often passed off as 'Afraid to admit their REAL sexuality!' or some other nonsense.   My actual sexuality can really only be accepted, once people become comfortable with accepting that other sexualities besides their own can be out in full display.  As such, I am very much aware that such a thing is nowhere near the horizon for me, and I will endure the bullshit of "Well, you just havent met the right person yet" for the rest of my life.

No, there is not right person. I am asex.

I live in a world that disadvantages people who are such, through a myriad of ways, owing to the fact that as a legit asex person, I am never going to father children, and society focuses entirely too much on procreation, and incentivizes procreation, even when that procreation is not actually desirable. (For instance, when that process produces children that are inevitably going to suffer from lasting physical and mental harm from being impoverished, et al. It is simply irresponsible to do in those conditions, but society still rewards it.)

I am however, very patient, and see that the time for asex people to start pushing, is AFTER the other, more obviously sexual demographics become mainstream accepted, and not before.  This is because the society cannot assimilate that change at this time.  Society has to first become comfortable with other kinds of non-procreative sexuality FIRST.

Now then-- about more immediate things to be done with Tenn--

Those tools seek to create aparthied, de-facto.  They seek to exclude LGBT people from all manner of public places, through placing an onerous restriction on businesses.


I suggest that instead of going full Karen on Twitter, and giving them ammo to use about how the LGBT community are a bunch of spoiled, entitled Karens, that you instead calmly and rationally approach those 180+ major corporations-- that the raging idiots that passed this bill will have ONE HELL OF A HARD TIME living without--- to OPENLY practice the law they demanded-- by opening to LGBT people, AND to bigots, alike, like they ALREADY want to do-- They just now have to put a stupid little sign out front saying such.

This is because those big corporations know something that the idiots in Tenn do not--- The times are changing, and that change is now inevitable. Trying to be the tacit enforcers of this bullshit move is fundementally self-destructive to those businesses-- that is why they would rather drop the entire state of Tenn like a radioactive potato, than do such a thing.

What does this accomplish?

It turns the tables on what the idiots demanding the aparthied want--- The only people standing apart, will be themselves, and their small (and thus statistically less able to survive a loss of customers) businesses-- Further, they will have the open offer to come and be with everyone else, any time.

It flips the calculus on its head.

That is why you should do it.

It is unoffensive, because it does not ostracise by its rhetoric or action.  It is fundementally inclusive, in the face of ribald attempts at exclusion.  Screaming like Karens on twitter does not accomplish that, and instead, fuels the righteous indignation of the idiots that passed this attrocious bill.

1057
General Discussion / Re: AmeriPol thread
« on: May 20, 2021, 12:51:07 pm »
Look, patience and inaction is not going to change the rate of ardent oppositionists, because opposing things is just What They Do. They will be a constant because there exists a sociopolitical body that exists solely to oppose things and not change, and this is not going to change with age. The propaganda machine is not going to stop turning and telling people to close their ears and minds if the conversation for progress goes quiet- bigoted elders may raise bigoted children and they'll never hear to the contrary if we stop making conversation.

I wasn't even referring to the young or old in my previous point- opposition to social change comes from any age. They will ALWAYS have ammo, because they will always find something to blame or make a caricature when reality doesn't have a perfect example. They're defending the status quo, and doing that is easy because it's not hinged on making a point or upholding the truth. It will always be an uphill battle when asking for change, because 'no' is so much easier to do.

I won't advocate we sit around and wait for more Tennessee laws be passed and quietly hope that they turn themselves around at some point in fear that some Tucker Carlson numbfuck on some news channel is going to make more pearl-clutching speeches about gendered bathrooms or hope quietly that my folks eventually come around to the BLM movement while the legal system systematically fails minorities, because these things are going to continue happening regardless of the noise anyone makes about changing them.


I already addressed that elephant in the room:


NOTE-- this is NOT an advocation of "not pushing".  DO NOT CONSIDER IT SO, IT IS NOT THAT THING.

What it actually IS, is an admonishment against pushing TOO HARD, to the point of being obstinate, and offensive, rather than constructive and considerate.

The notion that "You CANT push too hard!" is at fault here.

Again, it is not "Do nothing!! Things will get better all on their own! Pinkyswear!"

If you are going to try to pretend that is my position, I have nothing further to say to you, because you are beating a strawman.
(and I am VERY VERY sick of that tactic being used on me. Read what I wrote, and argue against what I have said, not what you believe it means, or what is most convenient for you to believe.)

1058
General Discussion / Re: AmeriPol thread
« on: May 20, 2021, 12:08:41 pm »
It is EXACTLY those things.

And was used in EXACTLY those ways.


Again, you are falling into the "Simply ignore" black hole.  You should not "Simply ignore" that younger people, who will persist MUUUUUCH longer than the "Already near expiration" boomer demographic, are adopting those views, and spreading them.

This is because that happening, is exactly my thesis.

(That is to say, the boomers making idiotic opinion pieces are indeed cases of "Old man yells at cloud"-- but when 20 somethings do it, you have a problem. Those 20 somethings will persistently resist meaningful progress for decades.)

1059
General Discussion / Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« on: May 20, 2021, 10:09:58 am »
The schadenfruede of Anne-Frank banging The Ubermensc does not occur to anyone?

1060
General Discussion / Re: Gardening with herbal magicks!
« on: May 20, 2021, 08:34:16 am »
Mine consumed a literal ton of organic matter.

(as in, a full 2000lbs of it, dry weight, were tilled in.)

Despite this, growth is slow.  The only things up are the squash, the pumpkins, and (some) of the green beans.

I installed a sexy mister watering system too. 


I have noted that a teeny number of carrot seedlings have done their thing, but considering I CARPET BOMBED that part of the garden, it should be much more than has come up.  Similar story with the swiss chard, and the herbs I planted.

Oh well.  Time will tell.

1061
General Discussion / Re: AmeriPol thread
« on: May 20, 2021, 07:38:50 am »
Now then--

as for how I would suggest you oppose this shit:

1) DO NOT GO ON FUCKING TWITTER, ON A LOUD MOUTHED RAMPAGE.

2) DO, INSTEAD, Attempt to get dialog going with these 180 corporations who have already voiced opposition, and ask them to "meaningfully comply" with the august tennesse legislature, by placing plaquards that say that they openly accept all patrons of their establishment, regardless of their gender, orientation, or views on sexuality.


The former gives ammo to the anti LGBT assholes, and stymies progress.

The latter is sensible pushing, that is unoffensive, and has real tractability to get useful progress in that state.

1062
General Discussion / Re: AmeriPol thread
« on: May 20, 2021, 05:58:16 am »
That is a whitewash and you know it frumple.

More often than not, the heavy pushers want to just demonize thier political adversaries, and blatantly ignore (Or worse, double-down on the adversarial rhetoric).

Since you mention suffrage; see the large number of newspaper editorials written by younger people contemporary with the issue, focusing on the malactions of the more bombastic suffragists. (Drinking, swearing, and smoking in public, and generally being offensive instead of constructively demonstrating that yhe arguments being made against them were bogus: women were incapable of being sensible and rational voters. The offensive among the demographic thereby postponed adoption of suffrage, rather than hastening it.) Those editorials were a central pillar of the organized anti-suffrage campaign cited in the paper below. The malactors provided the anti-suffrage movement potent and powerful tools to suppress suffrage.

Contemporary history focuses on the malactors, and wants to paint them as being heroic, but the actual movement's progress was mostly made by the non-beligerant, non-militant, who demonstrated through action that they could indeed be trusted with the vote. (1)

Dont engage in the whitewash.

Humanity is ugly with warts. Accepting the warts is how you advance its appearance.

See also the large bodies of research about getting people to agree with you, by appeasing their positions first.(1)

When you double-down on the offensiveness train, because it makes you feel righteous, you actually hamstring the progress of the movement you are claiming to advance.


NOTE-- this is NOT an advocation of "not pushing".  DO NOT CONSIDER IT SO, IT IS NOT THAT THING.

What it actually IS, is an admonishment against pushing TOO HARD, to the point of being obstinate, and offensive, rather than constructive and considerate.

The notion that "You CANT push too hard!" is at fault here.

1063
General Discussion / Re: AmeriPol thread
« on: May 20, 2021, 05:25:17 am »
I am perfectly down with the above.

Again, the bar to clear is "Society at large", not "100% of the boomer generational bracket". 
The boomer generation, as a group median average, trends toward more... oppressive... views about alternative sexualities.  As long as they hold a significant hold on national politics, this kind of blowback is inevitable.

Further, attempting to railroad past them, and force the issue, only alienates younger demographics, who then persist LONGER, and continue the pushback long after a point in time when the previous generation of obstructors would have been naturally removed from power through attrition.

It shoots yourself in the foot, and is demonstrably harmful to actual, meaningful change.


I totally "get" that this is a difficult, and bitter pill to swallow.  If it were possible to just magically reform society with a magic wand, and make everyone treat everyone equally, and right-- I would be among the cheerleaders saying to wave that fucker.

However, that is not the reality.

I want people to be treated right, and on the soonest possible timetable.  That means accepting the bitter pill.

1064
General Discussion / Re: AmeriPol thread
« on: May 20, 2021, 03:45:03 am »
I really, REALLY, **REALLY** do NOT want to be "That Guy" here, but--

This kind of backlash is what **ALWAYS** happens when social change is pushed at a rate faster than the civilization at large can assimilate.

EVERY.

SINGLE.

TIME.


Does it suck for LGBT people that such advance has to be done slowly? You bet your ass it does.
But want to know what sucks more?  Shit like just went down in Tennessee.


Cultural change is a slow, multigenerational affair.  Not something that you can keep on pushing for, and expect not to have backlash on, if you push too much.  It does not matter what the kind of change is you are trying to affect.  Doing it too fast, will result in the creation of entrenched "resistance" factions, which will styme all efforts for much longer than if you had just permitted slower, assimilatable progress.

For a significantly less politicized analog, see the advance of dogma in academia.  It happens at a rate commensurate with the deaths of tenured professors.

So, ask yourself a series of honest questions:

Are the boomers dead yet?

and

Are the boomers still a significant factor in the trajectory of the nation's politics?

UNLESS the answers to those questions are "YES" and "NO" respectively, you will have to accept the slower rate of assimilation.  Same as with academic publishing against established dogmas. You have to wait for the old professors to die.

The fact that the old professors refuse to fucking die, and actively shit on better research, is notwithstanding.  It is how the social assemblage functions.

Efforts to ram-rod that change through, because of impatience or selfishness (eg, believing it is ONLY about LGBT people, and everyone else can go suck it), will only stymie any further efforts for improvement in the future, because the CURRENT generation will be sensitized to your hamfisted antics, and will be the next demographic to stymie your efforts-- Progress will ultimately be SLOWER than if you had just accepted the rate the social construct could assimilate the change.





1065
General Discussion / Re: Science Thread (and !!SCIENCE!! Thread!)
« on: May 20, 2021, 03:38:18 am »
Or, for those that have difficulty with pictures, and also cannot read big walls of text:


A class of chemicals that has been known about for decades, Perfluorocarbons, can be shot up your butt when you are suffocating from acute lung dysfunction, and it will help you keep enough oxygen in your body to survive.

Or:

Oxygen rich enema lets you breathe through your ass.

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