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Messages - xadism

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1
I read a while back that the designation order of building the pumps in the pump stack can make a big difference.  Designating from the bottom up being the best way.  Maybe that performance boost negates the temperature effects?

I'm going to find out.  It's one of the things I'm testing in this week's science project.  I'm literally going to have seven parallel pump stacks, each of which varies just one variable from the base design.  Most of them are built simultaneously with DFHack (using blueprints, quickfort, and the dig-now and build-now commands).  But the last two stacks will be built by the dwarves, designated one at a time bottom-up and top down, to see what difference that makes.

2
25 Z-levels is a rather small pump stack in the absence of magma tubes.  It might be a noticeable difference with 100+ Z-level pump stacks.  Also, computers were slower 14 years ago, so perhaps those temperature calculations are no longer a bottleneck?

For where I need to get the magma, I have to go 120 levels, so I guess I'll know soon!  While it's true that computers are faster, other things (like lots of dwarves) can still slow a fort way down.   And the original thread makes some pretty extreme warnings: 

"10-level pump stacks of that style, which is shown on the wiki and is the most commonly-cited style for new players due to its efficiency, can drop a fort at 50 FPS down to 20 while they're running. 30-high stacks can drop 100 FPS forts to single digits"

If a 30-high stack could take 100FPS down to < 10FPS back then, it seems odd that a 25-high stack would have no visible effect whatsoever on FPS just due to a faster computer.  I think it's more likely that Toady made some optimizations to the temperature-calculation code sometime in the last 14 years, which is great if so, and maybe means the wiki needs some updates.   But I'm curious what experiences others have had with pump stacks.   This is my first one, so i don't know if my experience is typical.

But your  suggestion is a good one.  And I have a couple of 10+ year vintage laptops sitting around I may bust out soon for !!SCIENCE!!.  I'll report back what I find both with the older machines and the 120 level stack.   

3
The source tile at the bottom of the pump, is it constantly being refilled by 7/7 magma due to magma at a higher level

Not in my case, no.  The source reservoir is being fed from one level above, with a 2-wide feeder.  But the pump stack is still dramatically faster than the refill rate.  The reservoir, which is 3x8, gets drained pretty low while the stack is running.  With the source tile itself typically only having 0 or 1 deep magma.  Here's some shots of levels -99 and -100 with the pump off, and again with the pump on. 

https://imgur.com/a/QA8q7r6


4
It's been 14 years since this legendary thread, which is still linked from the wiki as the authoritative discussion on magma pump stack design and how it affects FPS. Question: is pump stack lag even still an issue? Does the 3x1 reservoir design still make a difference vs. the 1x1 reservoir?

The reason I ask: I went to test it for !!SCIENCE!! and I couldn't reproduce the lag problem.  I'm in 0.50.11.  I built a 10 Z-level pump stack and turned it on ... no change in FPS.  So I built a 25-level pump stack, and even spent two in-game years linking up 50 little drawbridges so that my entire pump stack could be converted on-the-fly between a 1x1 reservoir design and a 3x1 reservoir design.  And still - no change in FPS.

In the latter case of my 25-level pump stack in a 210-dwarf, 12-year-old fort:
  • pump stack off:  22FPS
  • pump stack on, 1x1 reservoirs: 22FPS
  • pump stack on, 3x1 reservoirs: 22FPS


I went back and forth several times and saw no change in FPS whatsoever.  Before you ask, yes, temperature was switched on, and when I switch on the stack I can see the temperature changing both with warmth indicators in mining mode and #probe in DFHack.

So ... did Toady fix the magma-pump-lag/presumed temperature-recalculation issues?  Should the wiki be updated that people shouldn't worry about pump stack lag anymore?  Or do other people still have this problem and I've found some magical solution?  Or something else?

Please help me, it's for !!SCIENCE!!.

The only thing I can think of I've really done different are 1) I surrounded my entire pump stack with constructed walls,  so I never accidentally mine into it while it's running. And dug tunnels around those walls for construction access because I built the walls after the channels and pumps were in place. And 2) I added the drawbridges to the reservoirs on each level.  Except those weren't there in my first 10-Z-level test, and I didn't see lag there either.   This is what my pump stack levels look like:


.......
.=====.
.=B.B=.
.==%==.
X.D%=..
..=_=..
..===..
.......
 


Where = is a constructed wall, . is an empty tile, %% is the pump (pumping North), _ is a channel, B is a one-tile drawbridge, D is an access door, and X is the staircase.

Many thanks for input from the more experienced Dwarvish scientists in the forum!

5
DF Gameplay Questions / Invaders won't path into fortress
« on: February 22, 2011, 03:37:07 pm »
I have a long, winding trap hallway ready to meet my goblins.

However, once a few have gone into it, the rest will happily wait outside, even though there's a clear path through.   I tried allowing my civilians to go outside to see if there was a blockage that needed clearing, and they immediately walked all the way through to get killed by the goblins, so there's definitely a path. Any thoughts as to why the gobbos might not try to get deeper inside?

I'm a little stuck, because there are still about 10 goblins and trolls in the outer hallway, and my military isn't up to taking them on.   (When I've tried, my squads have been decimated).

Any thoughts on why this might be happening?  After I started typing this, I eventually figured out that there was a kobold thief hiding in the trap hall, and killed him.   A few more of the goblins and trolls came running through into the traps after that, but four goblin spearmen remain who just stand in the outer hall, unwilling to move. 

6
DF Gameplay Questions / Constructions / digging not happening
« on: January 20, 2011, 03:53:07 pm »
I'm having a weird situation:  near my entryway, I have a bunch of designated digs (remove ramps, remove up/down stairs, channels, etc) and a bunch of constructions (walls and floors) queued up to build, but the dwarves aren't doing them.

The constructions are not suspended, everything is accessible, materials are available and nearby.  And other constructions / digs in immediately adjacent squares have been built.   I have one wall that looks like this now:  WWWWOOWOOWOWW,  where W is a constructed wall and O is a wall segment waiting to be constructed.   They've sat that way at least two in-game months and nobody ever builds the missing sections.

I have plenty of masons and miners with the labor turned on.   But if I designate a construction anywhere else in the fortress, they'll run build that and ignore the entryway construction.  If I put a burrow around the entryway and assign the miners and masons to it, they just stand around with "No Job".

Really can't figure out why they won't build these ... terrified I may get a goblin siege while my wall is still under construction!  Any help appreciated.

The only thing I can see that's different about these is that they are outdoors.   I've tried suspending and reactivating them, and canceling and redesignating the digs.  Nothing seems to help, it's as if the dwarves are simply allergic to some of the squares. 


7
DF General Discussion / Re: HOLY MOTHER OF GOD AND DARWIN
« on: February 17, 2009, 12:25:23 am »
Take off the FPS cap and see how high you can get.

I've been stress-testing various embark types, and can get at least 2 tiles of MAJOR river running at ~100 with no problems at all. 'Course, that's not counting what'd happen with more dwarves...

With the cap off, I'm averaging around 100FPS (dropping to 80 and peaking to 140).  This is on a 5x5 location with a brook cutting through 4 of the tiles, and 67 dwarves.

Oh, and I fixed my tileset problem.   I had installed the tilesets in data/art, but not the files in raw/graphics.   All is good now, and things are more than fast enough to make DF really interesting again.

8
DF General Discussion / HOLY MOTHER OF GOD AND DARWIN
« on: February 16, 2009, 11:55:52 pm »
... is this the way the game is supposed to have worked all along?  ~5x speedup for me across the board, but I can't say exactly because the released mac version doesn't report FPS.  But it's FAST.  Like I've never seen.

Mac OS X version.  40d9.
Macbook Pro 17", 2.6 Ghz Intel C2D.
OS X version 10.5.6
DFG graphics installed

I have a year 3 fortress with 67 dwarves.  The game is moving way faster than I have ever seen, even compared to a 3x3 location immediately after embark.   Whether focussed on my main level with 40 dorfs onscreen, or on the nearby river, or the swirling magma pipe, I'm getting 70-100 FPS.

But the dwarves on my screen right now are moving about 8-10 squares per second.   On the released 40d, it was 2 squares per second. Now I understand when people said that a year runs in about an hour of realtime.   It used to take me a week to play a year!

This has made me interested in actually playing DF again...

Not all the DFG graphics are showing up right (some of the dwarves are one-color silhouettes instead of pretty pictures), but I'll have to go check if my tilesets are installed correctly, I did it kind of quickly.

9
DF Gameplay Questions / Re: Fey Cripple
« on: February 13, 2009, 11:56:04 pm »
A much easier way to cage a dwarf is to build a 1x1 room with a cage trap and lock him in there until he decides to sleep.

Yanno, the two times I've tried that it didn't work for me.   Both times the bastard hammerer refused to go to sleep and died of thirst instead.

"Cage me, will you?"

10
DF Gameplay Questions / Re: Storing Livestock
« on: February 13, 2009, 11:51:18 pm »
The thing is that if a door is marked as passable but forbidden to pets, dwarves will be able to get through it and animals won't be able to open it, just like intended.

You know, I could swear this is not the case.   My first fortress, I tried creating animal pens with doors forbidden to pets, but every time i checked back all the animals were out of the pen, wandering around the fortress.   I did it three or four times before deciding I wasn't seeing things, and that all the doors really were labeled "pet-impassable".

That was before I knew about chains, I just chain everything now.

11
DF Suggestions / Re: Recent Suggestions
« on: February 13, 2009, 04:11:13 am »
Recreational pharmaceutical use is clearly off topic.

I wasn't talking about recreational use, though.   Exposure to psychoactive gasses is in fact a real risk of mining, plus there's the geological science behind delphi and subterranean ethylene gas that I cited above.   It would add a great new challenge to the game if your miners occasionally struck a gas fissure that caused them to go crazy for awhile, and that seems to me quite on topic for this thread.   (It's your thread though, so I'll bow to your greater wisdom.)

12
DF Suggestions / Re: Underground Diversity
« on: February 12, 2009, 09:53:57 am »
having pockets of gas or other substances that make your dwarves go mental and behave even more insanely sounds like a great idea. having them running around starting random fights and messing with each other to destabilize things would be a really interesting disaster,

Indeed.  They could also go into hallucinogenic strange moods.   

Urist McHighMiner is having a bad trip!
Urist McHighMiner slinks off to a den...
Urist McHighMiner has claimed a kitchen!

(...after a few months Urist emerges with...)

"Lucydiamonds", a minced bauxite roast.

This is a finely minced bauxite roast.  Not all craftsdwarfship is of the highest quality ... particularly not this one.  It is studded with cave spider silk and encircled with bands of kitten meat and microcline.  This object menaces with spikes of rotten kobold corpse.
On the item is an image of an octopus and dwarves in dwarven rum.   The octopus is mutating into the dwarves. 
On the item is an image of plump helmet spawn and plump helmet spawn in adamantium.  The plump helmet spawn and plump helmet spawn are attending a party at Marble Table.

Value, -120,000.  But it's a masterpiece artifact, so Urist will refuse to let go of it.

13
DF Suggestions / Narcotic gasses
« on: February 10, 2009, 06:23:38 pm »
This should be very rare, but could be fun if possible.  Beyond natural gas pockets...

Once the poison arc is in, occasionally mining should release a pocket of, or expose a vent of, poisonous gas and/or narcotic gasses.    Narcotic gasses could make your dwarves go loopy and do weirder things than they already do.

The inspiration is the contemporary hypothesis that the <a href="http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ethylene/ethylene_history1.shtml>oracle of delphi may have been situated on a gas vent that was releasing ethylene[/url].  The building around the vent concentrated the gas, and the priestesses who went down to breathe it came up in an intoxicated state to pronounce their visions.

This could potentially be implemented perhaps in ways that dovetail with existing suggestions about recreational drugs and/or underground natural gas pockets/vents.

14
DF Suggestions / Re: Fixing The Trade Equation
« on: February 10, 2009, 06:00:29 pm »
I definitely think production needs to be slower on most items; it's ridiculous that a single stonecrafter working in non-economic stone can, by year 2, be making enough crafts to almost buy out the whole stock of every caravan (or definitely buy them out if he's working in marble).    Stoneworking, clothmaking, leatherworking, etc... should all take longer to increase their value.   Both so it's worth our effort to import stuff, and so that we actually have to work to generate valuable exports.

As others have said, heavy items should cost more and sell for less because of the effort of transporting them.   If I need to import bauxite (and sand!  let me import sand!), I should pay through the nose for those merchants to haul that crap halfway across the continent.

Prepared food should be worth less.  Or possibly, caravans simply shouldn't trade in prepared food at all. A sack of grain will make it across a 100-mile journey ok.   Mom's pot roast and a loaf of bread won't.


15
DF Suggestions / Re: Suggestions for elves
« on: February 06, 2009, 06:48:41 pm »
I would prefer for elves to be actively phytokinetic... they can force trees and other plants to grow any way they damn well please.

Yes, I was just about to start a thread about what it might be like, in some distant-future version, to play the elves.   But this suggestion is exactly what I was thinking.   I searched and found this thread, so I'll post here instead of starting a new one.

I think it would need to start with multi-z-level trees made of a new class of material: living wood.   Then you'd have a profession of "tree trainer" or something.   You'd designate squares for:
   
  • Grow wall
  • Grow floor
  • Grow ladder/stairway
  • etc..
And if there were adjacent living wood, a tree trainer would go to that square, do something with the plant, and wood would grow into that region to create the needed structure.   A bit like a dwarven mason, but slower and requiring no materials.

To get lumber, another specialist more like a dwarven farmer would induce trees to grow extra branches that spontaneously fall off, producing logs without killing the tree.  The logs would fall to the ground (keep your elves out of the way!) and haulers would have to collect them.

Elves could cut trees if necessary, but doing so would generate severely unhappy thoughts when doing so, maybe in the -30 range.   Even the elves not doing the cutting would get (smaller) unhappy thoughts.

Elves could still have masonry and dig stone, but it would be much slower process than for dwarves.   They could not go underground - the reverse of dark adaptation, but it would likely be fatal.  So mines would either have to be surface/strip mines, or stone could be purchased from dwarven merchants.   If you're in a forest and have to cut trees to do it, well, then that just sucks for you.

But you could use the little stone you have for making walls around the trunks of your city, making them harder to set on fire.

Defending a fortress would consist of climbing up the trees ("order: Elves stay off the ground") and pulling up the rope ladders.  (You'd start with ladders of living wood grown up the trunks, but remove them once you had a cloth/fiber industry and use rope ladders the way dwarves use drawbridges.)  Since goblins or dwarves might try to chop at the trees or even set them on fire, plenty of archers would be necessary - elves can't simply close the door and ride out sieges the same way.

You could also dig moats around your trees, or even the whole forest.

Farming could include regular above-ground farming, just like dwarves.  In addition there would be tree-farming, which could only occur on plots of living wood, in which arboreal farmers induce branches to grow fruit.  This would give elves a new option to parallel dwarves' underground farming. 

Rooms probably wouldn't usually have walls, instead they'd generally be branch-floors surrounded by empty space.  Hmm, that could make sparring hazardous.  "Fimbreth, champion wrestler, dodges strike.   Fimbreth falls to his death!"  :-)

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