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DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Artifact Weapons modifiers
« on: May 20, 2009, 05:55:02 pm »
From another thread (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=34626.90), the question arose as to "What is the combat modifier for artifact weapons?"
Tho' this is not the first time this has been asked, it's worth re-hashing.
Below is a recap of the comments in that thread - skip down to the bottom for "next".
(dr.spoof & LS - I would hope that an artifact steel weapon would take someone's head off - I would expect a masterwork one would, so these should certainly be no less. Same w/ iron - only slightly less incredibly lethal. I don't see the point you're trying to make.)
There may well be parts of the code that are hidden that give artifact weapons a huge advantage - but if anyone has found them, they haven't mentioned it.
What we do know is this:
We also know the modifiers for materials and standard qualities - non-weapon materials have a "50%" multiplier, iron is 100%, and steel has a 133% multiplier, while masterwork is 200%. So a masterwork non-weapons weapon is the same as a standard iron and just under standard steel, 100% net.
And we know some basics of how combat works - "damage" is applied to "block", and if enough gets through, "wounds" are the result. And applying #3 above, those wounds can easily kill anything once that ball starts rolling. Won't always, but certainly can, and do quite often. Overkill is hard to verify - once a head or limb is off, it doesn't get cut off several more times with more damage. Once through any armour (which many "enemies" can't brag about), it's game on.
So, even a non-weapons-material masterwork weapon will do 100% damage, which is approximately 100% more damage than those lousy standard-quality copper picks - and we've all seen those kill stuff, even stuff we never expected.
We also know that any dwarf wielding an artifact weapon is highly skilled, which is deadly by itself, all weapons aside.
Now, we know two more things - 1) that there is a LOT of guessing and rumour and urban legend about Artifact weapons, and 2) that NONE of that is supported by any hard evidence from the game itself, only from other guessing and rumour and urban legend.
So, it's fine to say "My artifact soap battle axe is DA SHIT!!!" - but that doesn't prove it's really any better than a standard iron weapon, 100% modifiers. Doesn't mean it isn't, either.
If anyone has found anything in memory or elsewhere, something concrete from the game code itself (or memory or files or etc), now would be a great time to share that.
Tho' this is not the first time this has been asked, it's worth re-hashing.
Below is a recap of the comments in that thread - skip down to the bottom for "next".
Pretty much agreed that non-weapon material artifacts are just under steel masterworks, but are cool enough to perfer them by far, I think.
I think artifact weapons get a bonus above and beyond the usual material bonus, anyway, so it probably cuts goblins like a chainsaw through butter.
Like buttah!
However, where do you get this from? This observation has been made before, but so far still lacks any evidence other than "seems like it to me".
Personally, I get it from Boatmurdered, when the one prisoner is mauling the entire fortress guard armed with nothing but the artifact amulet he forged a couple of years earlier.
We all know weapon quality improves damage right? (Says so on wiki if you didn't)
Artifacts are of the highest quality
'nuff said
My artifact mace certainly seems to pwn. But then again, the user already killed a titan and a dragon without it, so she's pretty hardcore anyway.
Well, we all know that Masterpiece beat normal, and I believe artifacts are a set up.
Yeah, I think I've read the wiki. On the "Weapon" page, Artifact = Masterwork. But, point in fact, anyone can write anything on that - long-standing mistakes are corrected every day. (If you didn't know.)
"Quality" can refer to many things, both formally and (as is too often the case in the Wiki) informally. "Highest quality" is both a creative explanation of the concept, and a reference to the value.
The RAW's imply that the weapon qualities end at Masterwork, and that Artifacts have masterwork modifiers for combat. Or at least that's as much as analysis has found.
Urban legend and "It sure seems that way" and "That's what everyone says" and "Well, it only makes sense" seem to be the only sources and support for this belief.
Next time you get an artifact weapon, give it to an untrained champion in it's type to spar with.
You'll see how powerful it is by how many injuries you get. My champion with an atrifact steel sword that menaced with spikes of steel and hanging rings of steel instantly decapitated his sparring partner when he started training. It was also his wife.
He wasn't best pleased for awhile.
Lots of bludgeoning injuries when I let my champion with the artefact iron mace in. 3 members of the royal guard and 2 fortress guard are now lying in bed resting injuries (luckily, due to the high number of guards in my fortress (18, ie the recommended number, no soldiers got hurt). I decided to put him out on patrol.
(dr.spoof & LS - I would hope that an artifact steel weapon would take someone's head off - I would expect a masterwork one would, so these should certainly be no less. Same w/ iron - only slightly less incredibly lethal. I don't see the point you're trying to make.)
There may well be parts of the code that are hidden that give artifact weapons a huge advantage - but if anyone has found them, they haven't mentioned it.
What we do know is this:
- The modifiers for an artifact appear to default to the modifiers for a masterwork weapon (sim w/ armour). (This is from a stated analysis of game "memory")
- That masterwork quality is more than enough by itself to make any weapon plenty deadly, even silver and other "non-weapons-grade material" ones.
- That combat is very random, and any weapon can be lethal, and "observation" of one or a few incidents is not proof of anything.
We also know the modifiers for materials and standard qualities - non-weapon materials have a "50%" multiplier, iron is 100%, and steel has a 133% multiplier, while masterwork is 200%. So a masterwork non-weapons weapon is the same as a standard iron and just under standard steel, 100% net.
And we know some basics of how combat works - "damage" is applied to "block", and if enough gets through, "wounds" are the result. And applying #3 above, those wounds can easily kill anything once that ball starts rolling. Won't always, but certainly can, and do quite often. Overkill is hard to verify - once a head or limb is off, it doesn't get cut off several more times with more damage. Once through any armour (which many "enemies" can't brag about), it's game on.
So, even a non-weapons-material masterwork weapon will do 100% damage, which is approximately 100% more damage than those lousy standard-quality copper picks - and we've all seen those kill stuff, even stuff we never expected.
We also know that any dwarf wielding an artifact weapon is highly skilled, which is deadly by itself, all weapons aside.
Now, we know two more things - 1) that there is a LOT of guessing and rumour and urban legend about Artifact weapons, and 2) that NONE of that is supported by any hard evidence from the game itself, only from other guessing and rumour and urban legend.
So, it's fine to say "My artifact soap battle axe is DA SHIT!!!" - but that doesn't prove it's really any better than a standard iron weapon, 100% modifiers. Doesn't mean it isn't, either.
If anyone has found anything in memory or elsewhere, something concrete from the game code itself (or memory or files or etc), now would be a great time to share that.
(These are steel, not practice bolts)