Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Messages - LordZorintrhox

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 15
46
DF Suggestions / Re: [TENDS_YOUNG] Tag
« on: January 10, 2010, 02:52:25 pm »
I want to say it would be better to put such a thing under "ethics."  Hard-wiring those things in the species seems off somehow.

On the other hand, most non "sentient" species seem to work that way as far as our real-world observations have gone...hmm.

Maybe if it was a non-required tag for species.  If the tag is missing in a species, all members tend to young depending on convenience.  Non-civ species can take the tag in caste definitions.  Civ species can take the tag in ethics under the format [CHILD_CARE_CASTE:<caste_name>:<ethic_descriptor>] or under the caste, but not both.

I think that might model things better, because once a species is thinking in intangible concepts, dogma, and traditions, child care becomes a sticky subject.  For instance, if a father was the primary caregiver in a society where fundamentalist religion dictated that women are supposed to be taking care of the children, he could be exiled or imprisoned or something else horrible.  Seagulls, on the other hand, probably wouldn't care at all.

Also, if gay couples ever made it in, just a caste-based tag would be kinda broken and the code behind it would have to be rewritten anyway to deal with it.  Better to nip it in the bud and add opportunities for interesting stories for when we get a legends update.  For instance: a defiant husband and wife raise their children together in a culture where the women are supposed to do it alone, constantly heckled by the townsfolk.  Their children go on to conquer half the world and unite the human races.

47
DF Suggestions / Re: Vertical rooms
« on: January 10, 2010, 02:14:28 pm »
IN Enternal Suggestion Voting, it is under "3D designations."

48
DF Suggestions / Re: Making HFS scarier
« on: January 10, 2010, 02:04:38 pm »
Demonhunter was suggested as a Demonologist noble two pages back, as was an invisible murder beast.  The above duplicate suggestions, though, have a slightly more robust spin.  I don't know if defiling the entrance to another hell-dimension is such a good idea, and it certainly wouldn't stop the onslaught.

Having just recently come into the joys of the Arkham Horror board game, I think it would be interesting to have the option of resealing the pits somehow.  You'd still have to kill the demons pouring out before being able to do it.  If the onslaught is endless, then a mechanic that puts the siege on pause would be necessary to allow you time to seal the pits.  Like, say there is a demon holiday where the denizens of The Eternal Plane of Fire are not allowed to slaughter mortals for a week in penance for whatever, or perhaps for one week a year building up to the first day of spring, the pilgrimage of the Forest Spirit from the Realm of the Dead to the Mortal Plane makes inter-dimensional travel impossible for evil forces.

Just something that gives your priests/demonologists/alchemists/what-have-you enough time to get in there and reseal the pits.  Assuming adamantine is the only thing that can keep the demons caged, I would assume it would be involved in resealing.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I like, Felblood.  You laid things out in a nice, reasonable manner.  I agree entirely.  I wonder what would happen if a priest is possessed...it should be more interesting than the lay dwarf getting possessed, more insidious.  Like, the priest may start a cult and start converting dwarfs to do the evil bidding of a dark god.  You don't notice or hear anything about it until you see four or five dwarves in a far-off corner somewhere "holding a meeting" dressed in hoods and cloaks.  Later that room has "pidgeon remains" in it and blood splatter.

I am a little disturbed by the attitude that things in a fantasy game should be kept only in the realm of rational explanation or that the supernatural/paranormal has no place in DF.  There is no problem with people preferring to play whatever way they desire, be it with brute force, wizards, philosophers/alchemists, or faith.  But it is wrong to argue that the game should not include any of those methods as an option to deal with a fundamentally 'extra-planar' threat based on the fact that it represents an homage or reference to the reality of how real humans deal with the unexplained.  The point of a Tolkienesque fantasy is to experiment with the what-if of mythologies (that is, dead faiths) being the manner in which the universe actually works.

Unfortunately, most such universes get it wrong and put forth a mythology and supernatural mechanisms that make it so that faith or magic-based solutions are the only viable ones against the supernatural or even any remotely interesting threat of scale.  It is a legitimate fear to have that our beloved game my go this way, and it would nerf our armies and traps via relativity if some totems and amulets were 10x more effective at thwarting the pits.  D&D is a prime example: a 12th level wizard is many times more deadly than a 12th level fighter given the right spells and some ingenuity.  At least at 15th level a cleric can bring back the dead with little consequence (as far as the rules strictly go) and a wizard can deal 7d6 of lightning damage instantaneously.  No one is suggesting this kind of misbalance.  What is being suggested is that a full spectrum of methods for dealing with the pits should be effective in a balanced manner, allowing the player to choose how they want to primarily deal with the situation.  Amulets and totems can soothe your dwarf's tempers and fears, but so can tinctures and medicines made by your Alchemists, public display of slaughtered demons, confinement of the supernaturally insane, etc.

I've said it before: a game in which the gods have known birthdays only a few hundred years past, primordial demigods still roam the world and attack your fortress, and unscrupulous mining results in the opening of gateways into the evil planes themselves cannot escape having a meaningful system of faith that goes beyond mere superstition.

49
DF Suggestions / Re: Making HFS scarier
« on: January 04, 2010, 02:08:02 pm »
Yeah, each entity would need to do some kind of awareness sweep every step of the AI.  I am sure there is a clever way of dealing with this issue programmatically, but I'd have to think real hard.  The real time killer is the need to deal with the Euclidean Distance between each entity and each other entity.  The time needed increases exponentially with the number of entities: 4 needs 16 checks, 8 needs 64, 16 needs 256, etc.  Hit 50 dwarves and a dozen goblin seige and you have 62^2, or 3844, checks, and each one requires two rounds of exponentiation and one square root.  Civilians need to check, too, since they are put off by baddies.

50
DF Suggestions / Re: Making HFS scarier
« on: January 04, 2010, 10:59:42 am »
I didn't say anything about Jesus saves, nor are my suggestions the end all be-all.  Workable examples from faiths dead and living:

-Thor protects the realms from the forces of chaos (Giants) by use of a hammer that always hits
-Isis protects all with her love (a mother-figure in the Isis cult of I think Roman times)
-If you don't venerate your ancestors, they'll haunt your ass (China)
-Burning bundles of sage purifies a place of evil influence (Wicca)

In the DF multiverse, the gods are recorded as having been born at specific times, Titans (a very common feature of European traditions) actually walk the world and can attack you, and Demons can take over civilizations (even moreso in the new version). 
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There is no reason to dismiss faith-based solutions to the malevolent forces of an explicitly supernatural world, and especially not for the reason it is "over done."  So are wizards in high fantasy, and so are dwarves and their alcohol.  Furthermore, no matter how you write it, not everyone can be an effective means of protection (pick your wizards, priests, clerics, or soldiers), so the lay dwarf will seek some way of protecting themself, and that usually means superstition, faith, and talismans, at least in the real world at the target time period.

Lastly, neither magic, faith, nor brute force can ward off every crazy-ass demon/ghost/titan/dragon/possession.  But giving the player no options of how to deal with them other than "kill it! kill it NOW!" is unacceptable.

51
DF Suggestions / Re: The argument FOR controversial elements in DF
« on: January 03, 2010, 08:50:34 pm »
For extra badness add a Polygamy ethics tag, don't complain if your civ ends up with the ACCEPTABLE value for the coming ethics diversification.

Let us not forget that polygamy need not be restricted to multiple wives.  There is a neolithic tribe which there are multiple husbands, and the womenfolk takes great care not to let the men know who's child is whose so that every child has at least three, sometimes like six, fathers.

Quote from: Foehamster
I haven't noticed any mention of the controversial drug topic (AFAIK beer doesn't even get one drunk) but I don't see any advantage in storytelling or gameplay to adding it in.  Think about a stoner movie if you don't believe me.
I know EXACTLY how to include it: in GURPS and the Hero system role playing games, a character may take a disadvantage in order to get more character points to work with.  So, you take "addiction to substance: opium" and get ten extra points to augment your sword technique.  but you have to have opium lest you risk withdrawal and death.
Quote from: CoboltKobald
OFF TOPIC -
I'd say the tag that best incorporates modern views of homosexuality would be PERSONAL_MATTER
That would be nice if it were true.

Seriously.
Quote from: CoboltKobald
It was nice to prove that the members of the community are capable of handling these issues maturely,
IS THAT A CHALLENGE?  :D

 >:( (there is no "raised eyebrow" smiley, so this has to do.  Just imagine it is a raised eyebrow smiley)  ;)

Quote from: CobaltKoblod

Lastly, on rape...if it is impossible, doesn't it rather kill the point of 99.9% of "kidnap the princess" stories? The sinister prince captures the neighboring kingdom's princess, and then she gets to go "Ha! You can't do anything to me. I'm protected by the code."

Including, say, The Evil Squire?

Yeah, it would.  There needs to be a more complex rewrite of the social interaction code before the ramifications of alot of this can be represented reasonably (depression, self-loathing, regret, and a whole slew of other stuff that can be caused by severe psychological trauma).

52
DF Suggestions / Re: Making HFS scarier
« on: January 03, 2010, 07:16:15 pm »
Well then the religion arc is probably the most suitable solution for the lay dwarf to halt the demon insanity.  As suggested, amulets keep your dwarves safe from minor supernatural events like crops going off, spontaneous breakage, and still births, Priests keep the fortress safe(r) from ethereal demon infestations and spontaneous combustion by anointing the fortress, and temples and temple paraphernalia keep unholy insanity down.

Some Noble ideas to support this:

Daemonologist: presence keeps demon influence down and helps deal with those ethereal flayers, poltergeists, and hauntings when they occur.  Requires a Study (designated from a bookcase) and a meditation chamber (designated from a "stone of scrying" or the like) in addition to usual noble demands.  Always have an affinity for images of demons and the supernatural.

Exorcist: cures supernaturally insane and possessed (not the mood) dwarves.  Poor skill in exorcism may result in the death of the patient...  Also needs a Study and a piece of furniture called an Altar.  Collects scepters, totems, and amulets for use in exorcisms.

Monk/Ascetic: Presence enhances the effect of amulets and idols in keeping small areas safe.  Seeing a monk gives dwarves happy thoughts and increases the affect of their specific talismans, so long as they're believers in that monk's religion.

Prophet: Similar to the philosopher, but religious.  Assuming that Philosophers will one day gives lessons and lectures in thought to dwarves who want to listen (what with the new teaching system, a possibility), the prophet does the same but with regards to religion.  Neither requests anything, but depending on the faith of the Prophet, he may refuse things you give them.  Prophets also increase faith in the population.

The religion solutions treat the problem defensively by arming the populace with faith.  Magic would then treat the problem more offensively by the few highly trained wizards closing extra-spacial portals, putting mental chains on the possessed to trap the demon inside them (forever, but controlled nonetheless), and actively seeking out demons and monsters in order to deal with them preemptively.

That leaves the methods very open to the player's tastes, mixing and matching ways to deal with demons.

53
DF Suggestions / Re: Making HFS scarier
« on: January 03, 2010, 02:23:09 am »
The staring-at-a-wall is...amazing.  Cause you wouldn't catch it immediately, and then you'd be like "meh, just a bug" and then "OH CRAP, he's dead!"  Great stuff.

What about
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Miscellaneous:

-When you start getting close to the pits, spontaneous dwarven combustion may occur to a few unlucky dwarves.
-Easter Egg: Dwarf gets a fell mood and makes a Necronomicon of Dwarf Leather
-A dwarf goes insane and randomly starts pulling levers...
-A miner goes insane and randomly starts digging near water/magma...
-Random creatures or vermin in the fort mutate into random hell-beasts
-Pregnant creatures in the fort give still births or birth demon spawn
-Crops go off in the fields
-The ale goes SOUR (now THERE is a dwarven nightmare)
-A dwarf does not seem to be insane...until you notice that he has spent the time he would have been sleeping engraving the walls of his bedroom with the hellscapes that keep him awake.
-A dwarf will only eat live animals, seeking out kittens and vermins which he consumes raw.

That's all I got right now.

54
DF Modding / Re: DWARFLETTER GOTHIC Tileset: ver 0.2.2 beta
« on: January 02, 2010, 01:40:00 pm »
Dwarfletter Micro 8x12 is now up here:

DFFD Listing

Cool, I got a "sweet."  Thanks.

55
DF Suggestions / Re: I Like Big Buttes and I Cannot Lie
« on: January 01, 2010, 10:00:44 pm »
Ehh, boob-handling locks of hair, ehh.

Anyway, I'll add that more complex erosional features are a lot harder than they sound...but that can be said for everything in this game.

Basically, what happens now is a procedural fractal is used to generate the elevations, then random river beds are run with the caveat of running from the high mountains down to the seas.  Erosion is calculated for those random paths to make sure the rivers aren't going uphill, and then the real rivers are run and filled with water.

The results aren't terribly realistic because that isn't how (water) erosion works.  It works now by running things backwards, like "I want a river here, what does the terrain have to do to facilitate that?"

In order to support intuitive and dynamic water erosion features, like fjords, or rivers that aren't rather canned, Toady would have to implement something along the lines of this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This would add dynamic geological features, and allow realistic things to happen, such as under-cutting by erosion, natural waterfalls with appropriate surrounding geology, and drainage systems of tributaries that look real.  That is the only way to do things properly in DF, because the idea is for complex structure to be emergent features.  Fjords might happen this way, but you're guaranteed fjords if an ad-hoc glacial erosion step was added before water erosion simulation to carve out the deep and steep gashes needed to create the feature.

I just did some speculative psuedo code, and it isn't pretty.  The numbers are pushing 180 billion tile-like objects to check for every loop of the sim (in the worst case I can think of with some rather poorly conceived code, but still).  If Toady plans to add plate tectonics and realistic volcanoes and the like, he'd need to rewrite the whole gen system anyway, so it isn't outside the realm of possibility to have realistic geography.

Without knowledge of the guts of the world gen code, it is hard to say with certainty how easy it would be for Toady to add this without rewriting the whole way it works.  I think it is likely he would have to, considering the manner in which rivers are made right now.  The system was designed from the ground up to deal with generating a fractal terrain, not an erosion sim.

On some level it is kind of a full blown Euler-based fluid simulation (as in the sediments moving, not necessarily the water itself), since the ideal solution is a world space populated by deposit "cubes" that are allowed to move around according to hardness, elasticity, cohesion, and erosional attributes, changing from solid rocks to sediments to rocks again and again.  Such a MASSIVE, and I mean MASSIVE undertaking might not even be within the realms of a desktop, even the best in the community.

Though he somehow manages to fit a whole world into a 5 MB file, so...who knows.

56
DF General Discussion / Re: PC Gamer Top 100
« on: January 01, 2010, 07:27:59 pm »
Dwarf Fortress
Red Alert 2
Day of the Tentacle
Myst
C & C (reconned to Tiberian Dawn)

The A-list as far as I'm concerned.

57
DF Modding / Re: DWARFLETTER GOTHIC Tileset: ver 0.2.2 beta
« on: December 31, 2009, 01:08:23 pm »
Okay, here's the update thus far:

-Sand tiles are fixed so that sand walls look like sand walls and hilly regions on the map look like hills (I use the same tile for both).
-I finally have a blocks tile that satisfies my design specs.
-Tweak to dark gray color in the color scheme because it wasn't dark enough
-Toned down the cyan x red tweak I added to flows so magma would look different; it is enough to change the texture of the magma but not enough to be as jarring as it was.  The sand tile will likely get a little of the same treatment sot that sand is more uniform; this should not have a negative impact on the map
-I still need to review the plants and sync things up again with the latest tiles; this includes the new sapling tile which can also be used for leafy plants and the new vines tile which has a silhouette for a gourd.  The sapling tile I have realized was moved because the tau tile is used in the maps; replacing it with the grass shrub tile makes plains like like plains on the map, so everything is good.  Leafy bush tile tile needs a repaint, as does the grass bush tile which is indistinct.
-I'm taking the bullet and making the bags tile and amulet tile proper sprites instead of the male/female sign.  I never really use that in-game anyway, so it is more important to make things look right at this point.
-Completely re-painted the tiles used for rivers on the map.  The messy borders ended up being a style I can't stand, so I pulled some nifty hijinks pixel-wise and I don't think rivers have ever looked so nice:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Because of this arrows/bolts should look better.  Also, that seam issue will be taken care come release time; it is an artifact of the way the tiles are laid out in the image and the emboss filter I use.

You will notice in the Local map the hill/sand tile on the majority of the map.  It still needs work so that is looks like the archetypal "hills" map symbol.  Also, on the Region map the plains symbol is used in the lower right.  Works okay here, still needs a tweak.
-Changed the letter 'Q' to match the typeface's style rather then the letter 'O'.  Much better now.
-I painted a Micro version of DwarfletterClassic for 8x12 tiles.  It retains the look of the 16x16 but is much smaller and really gives a retro feel.  You can also still read it.
-I have to review all the minerals/stones/soils again and make use of things better now that I have played around some more.  I think I might have neglected to include a dark-green intrusive mineral, since Olivine is light green now...some changes might be necessary.  Also, the layers tile is pissing me off, I need to re-paint it.  A few soil are also miss-aligned and are using the completely wrong tile.
-Arcanagram is sitting on my computer at school, but it has a sprite for every possible dwarf so far.

Now, about rolling this thing out...I'm going to wait for the next release of DF so I can update all of this and resolve any issues that might exist with the new objects added to the game.  Luckily, there are still like four non-essential sprites that at the moment are being used for HFS coolness; they are merely nice-to-have.  Also, Arcanagram will have to wait too so I can add sprites for the medical personnel.  However, I will put DwarfletterMicro up by itself since I know there are some people who wanted it.

58
DF Suggestions / Re: The argument FOR controversial elements in DF
« on: December 29, 2009, 07:43:08 pm »
Or Fable where all you need to do is 1) be awesome and 2) give them one gift and they start asking you to marry them.  Shags are generally a dime a dozen in games that bother to include them.

The point is at least Mass Effect tried and made you work for it.  There was an investment in the whole scenario and the characters, at least if you bothered to pay attention.  Plus the whole interchange was kinda cute.  Some of the things Sheppard says are...awesomely corny.

SSBR, that was in a spoiler block for a reason you know.  It is supposed to be an important and jarring part of the game...

59
DF Suggestions / Re: The argument FOR controversial elements in DF
« on: December 29, 2009, 02:20:08 pm »
S'okay, I get edgey late night.  Though it would be grinding at any time of day.  Thanks.

If that is indeed how the guts of DF work, then I am perfectly okay with whatever Toady does if he should ever burn precious Rawifying or Mechanics Arc time making sure that creatures can be gay.  I mean, let's face it, the Fantasy genre isn't exactly a place to find representative levels of homosexuality in general.  Though it is still a "nice to have...," like most gay issues.  Comes with the territory.

I'm happier the conversation didn't take a wicked right into lumping homosexuality and bestiality into the same category, because then I'd have been ripshit.

ANYWAY, the point made about the media never picking up on DF's "gritty realism" is very valid.  Since the game is in ASCII, and if it ever evolves past that it would merely be sprites and isometric, there is no way the media would bother.  There is no two-second clip they can play to get parent's dander up, merely text.  It would be news that wouldn't sell.

My personal preference is that there is nothing wrong with including any element in a game one could call "controversial," as long as it is included in a manner that fully represents why it is controversial in the first place.  For instance, GTA makes all that horrible stuff fun and with only minor, paper-thin consequence.  In contrast, Mass Effect requires at least 8 hours of game play devoted to merely hanging out with the girl to get a 15 second clip of barely R-rated side-boobage.  In game terms, that is an eternity.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So if you want to include rape (Armok knows why...) or torture, make the repercussions believable and tangible.  Have the act have some effect on the character's psyche that makes gameplay change.  The system already is in some limbo between the player is in charge and the the character is in charge, so maybe depression effects from transgressing your race's ethical rules could kick in.  Depression does have that element of "wanting to do something, but just can't seem to get out of my own way," and your little adventurer refusing to do things you tell them to for a few turns every time they see someone with red hair because you once had them brutally murder a person with red hair would be interesting and impart a true, realistic, and gameplay relevant cost for their actions.

Descriptions can go a long way there, too.  For torture, the game mechanics would have to be transparent.  No minigaming or "close to talking" bar.  No, you must needlessly beat up someone and carefully intersperse interrogation until they crack or die.  That way, you have to have the sickening knowledge that you have practiced and carefully thought about how to break someone's will.

60
DF Suggestions / Re: The argument FOR controversial elements in DF
« on: December 29, 2009, 02:04:48 am »
This game will get very interesting if this suggestion is implemented. I can't wait to see [ETHIC:HOMOSEXUALITY:IF_GOOD_REASON] in the raws.  :D

Well, if you're gay, there is always a good reason...that being you are gay. ;)

Sorry to return to this, but...I felt I couldn't not say something.  Yeah, good joke, but, I don't know...

Frankly I find it personally offensive.  Sorry, I normally don't care and shrug such things off as forum banter.  Hell, I make gay jokes all the time with my friends, but it really isn't okay this time, especially in a thread seriously discussing "controversial elements" that could be added to DF.  I know this is a joke, but I can't get the bad taste out of my mouth, and I really don't want to be offended, but I am.

Given that most social species show homosexual tendencies, and that DF simulates things down to individual teeth and what manner of earrings a person likes, it would be reprehensible not to include homosexuality in what are by most accounts fantasy's most social of races (among themselves at least).  Pile on the civilizations that exile homosexuals, etc., but model the ethics in an interesting way that can mirror the real world issues faced by gay people both historically and contemporaneously.

You know, raping lesbians to "fix" them, the death sentence, forced sterilization, as well as "personal matter," "who the hell cares? (I guess that would be "acceptable")," and full marriage rights.  The options in the raws cover most of that, but at least one would need to be added for marriage rights.

However, it doesn't exactly cover it properly: I am unaware of the decision mechanism behind the DF creatures actions, so I do not know how the ethics interact with what creatures do.  If murder is "unthinkable," does that mean a murderer is wrong in the head in terms of how the game logic made him murder?  Did the creature "decide" to go against their culture's ethics?

If so, the homosexuality tag would only treat the civ's reaction to the act of, in DF terms, taking a same-gendered spouse, because it is unavoidable in a human-esque fantasy species.   Civ's will have to deal with it no matter what.

So please don't make jokes like I have no other choice, because I don't.

Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 ... 15