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Messages - Leafsnail

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31
Mafia / Re: SuperSaint3 - 3 players mini- Day 1
« on: January 21, 2021, 10:58:29 am »
This game was cursed by yours truly. But jokes aside. Sorry for being rash at the end. I didn't want the mafia to tie the vote. So I flipped another coin and you came up.
I really don't like you taking this approach. I'd be OK if you just thought I was scummier than hector because that would mean he beat me by being more convincing. But if you put it down to a coinflip all the discussion we had feels pointless.

32
Mafia / Re: SuperSaint3 - 3 players mini- Day 1
« on: January 20, 2021, 08:38:44 pm »
I was proud of it. The real shame is that I didn't make it while LuckyOwl was still absent with his vote on you though - that would've really put you in a spot.

33
Mafia / Re: SuperSaint3 - 3 players mini- Day 1
« on: January 20, 2021, 07:10:04 pm »
Why would you quickhammer?

34
Mafia / Re: SuperSaint3 - 3 players mini- Day 1
« on: January 20, 2021, 06:57:44 pm »
Mafia wins. GG.

35
Mafia / Re: SuperSaint3 - 3 players mini- Day 1
« on: January 20, 2021, 05:43:24 pm »
That doesn't... you think I'm scum but you're willing to lynch Luckyowl?
If you're scum then hammering LuckyOwl will kill you. If you're not scum then hammering LuckyOwl will kill him. Either way the mafia dies, so as I said I have no reason to object to you hammering LuckyOwl.

So of course you have no option but to 180 switch to me. What reason do you have for doing so, other than that "you're mafia and have realized you can only win by lynching me with LuckyOwl"?

36
Mafia / Re: SuperSaint3 - 3 players mini- Day 1
« on: January 20, 2021, 12:07:39 pm »
Annoyingly... it probably still has to be hector9. I don't really see much justification for you holding your vote on LuckyOwl so resolutely. You've reacted to my questioning well enough but I haven't really seen any curiosity from you regarding my own alignment. Annoyingly this would inevitably put LuckyOwl in the deciding seat once again.

With that said: hector, if you are actually a super-saint who's just absolutely convinced that LuckyOwl is scum then you can actually win without having to convince me that you're innocent. If you're prepared to be the one who hammers LuckyOwl (and you should be if you are the SS) then I have no reason to object to that.

37
Mafia / Re: SuperSaint3 - 3 players mini- Day 1
« on: January 20, 2021, 11:15:41 am »
*delete a nonsense rant why Hector is scum*

Alright. Sorry for lying at the beginning, but I wanted to see what was LS's reaction. Anyways I think LS is scum. They're constant pressure on you at the very beginning is telling. Especially with this slip.
LS:

Quote
You on the other hand have I think demonstrated some awareness (with your initial vote and the comment about bluffing being a super saint) but have not made any attempt to explain - in fact I'd go further and say that some of your posts are potentially misleading.

A townie wouldn't really care about a bluffing Super saint claim. Their goal is to find the scum. As Town. It's best to work with what you have in front you. If Hector hinted to having an SS claim why not grill me over? Yes, I have read your reason why you think I'm town. But it's truly not enough. I can be lying to you maybe I want to pretend to help town? Heydude6 is a prime example of this sort of play in BYOR 15. So if you were town you would've initially "believe this."
Working out who the super-saint is and working out who the mafia is are two completely equivalent tasks for me. If I know which one of you is the super-saint I know the other one is the mafia member by process of elimination, and vice versa. When thinking about whether to vote and who to vote for over the past two days both mafia tells and SS tells were important in weighing up the decision.

I don't know what you mean by "why not grill me over". You made zero posts yesterday. I commented on the post you did make and later threatened to hammer you if you didn't come back. Meanwhile I engaged with hector because he was actually making posts.

and instead focus hard on me. Of course, I didn't claim saint so you went after Hector instead of me. That's what I feel at this momento.
I don't understand what that's supposed to mean. You made a post with no reasoning whatsoever and I responded asking you to provide reasoning. What other reaction were you expecting? How am I supposed to "focus hard" on someone who's said nothing for the entire game?

38
Mafia / Re: SuperSaint3 - 3 players mini- Day 1
« on: January 19, 2021, 09:55:25 pm »
Hector you're scum.
What makes you think this? You have not posted any thoughts regarding this before.

39
Mafia / Re: SuperSaint3 - 3 players mini- Day 1
« on: January 19, 2021, 05:04:56 pm »
Luckyowl: What are your thoughts on this discussion? Why aren't you posting? We are running out of time. I am not prepared to let you skate by without having engaged with me at all - if you have not posted by tomorrow I will hammer you.

I don't agree with you that sharing how the game works is alignment indicative at all. I have, on plenty of occasions, offered mechanical advice on the game as scum in an effort to come across as town. Usually in RVS, because staying in RVS for as long as possible is a good thing for scum, and chatting about mechanical theory is a tremendous way of keeping that going.

Why are you so focused on our knowledge of the mechanics, again?
I am "focused" on it because it is one of the few things that has happened in this very short and limited game. But yes, it is true that mafia can offer information to appear helpful.

The rest of your explanation... I think basically tracks for me. I feel some honesty from it. With that said...

hector13: Are you bothered by LuckyOwl's lack of posting for such a long period during such a short game? Who do you think is mafia?

40
Mafia / Re: SuperSaint3 - 3 players mini- Day 1
« on: January 18, 2021, 07:17:00 pm »
On the other hand, scum gain a significant disadvantage by not understanding the game. Rocket surgery, it is not. We are each one of two things from everyone else's perspective, the trick is figuring that out. I could go further into possible means for each player to win the game, but that would be a pointless endeavour because it doesn't mean anything.

Thus, knowing how the game works isn't alignment indicative. I'm slightly disgusted that you appear to think it is given I'm pretty much beatifying you later.
Leafsnail

Why are you indicating trust toward Luckyowl over non-alignment-indicative things?
Knowing how the game works inside your head isn't alignment indicative in and of itself, no. But sharing that information with other players is, to some degree. A town player benefits from his fellow townie also understanding the game. A scum player does not benefit from the opposing town players doing so.

This is the contrast I saw in those early posts. LuckyOwl has, I feel, demonstrated insight into how the setup works and shared it with the thread. You on the other hand have I think demonstrated some awareness (with your initial vote and the comment about bluffing being a super saint) but have not made any attempt to explain - in fact I'd go further and say that some of your posts are potentially misleading.

You do say further down in your post that you voted LO rather than me because you trusted me not to rush to a hammer, and I do understand that. But town!LO misunderstanding the setup could still be a problem for you if you're on the same team. I have the same objection to you declaring that he has to be scum even as an RVS tactic - what if LO were to take the bait and refuse to unvote you?

What did I walk back? I maintained my vote on Luckyowl. Actions speak louder than words, yes?

The thing I "should have thought of" was that scum have much better reason to be aggressive than town, as they lose nothing by being the first vote on a wagon, and could potentially lose the game by being the second.
This isn't right. A townie has just as good a reason to be aggressive - they also win by being the first player on a super-saint lynch. I... thought you already realized this? Why else would you vote first?

Also that post just felt self-conscious to me, a scramble to distance yourself from appearing as mafia. I accept there is some need to care about what alignment you appear as even when you're playing town, but usually working out who's playing as which alignment is more at the fore in that case.

Overall I really appreciate that you opened the day with substantive content because it made the game a lot more interesting. But I'm struggling to build a mental model for you that makes sense - the amount you know about the setup seems to vary from post to post.

41
Mafia / Re: SS3 - 3 players mini mafia - Day 1
« on: January 18, 2021, 11:54:25 am »
So both of you have claimed townie? How interesting. I can tell you now that both of you are lying.

I am currently more inclined to trust LuckyOwl, and I will lay out why.

This post from LuckyOwl:
Hector13. If you're saint then you really put me in a good position here. Now the Mafioso must be careful who they choose. But if you're Mafioso then our fate is whatever the saint! Leafsnail chooses. They win regardless of the alignment. However..if they don't randomly pick one of us. Then that means. We might have 2 possible scenario.

A: Town ^ Saint
           
       Mafia


B: Mafia ^ Saint

       Town

In both instances. Townie, and scum must be careful who they choose. The Mafia! Leafsnail will try to find a saint slip. The Town! Leafsnail will try to find a scum slip. If we're in scenario A. Then we have to be careful not to do a saint slip. If we're in scenario B. Then you'll have to make me look scummy and I'll have to make you look scummy. I hope we're in a scenario A. Since then we can turn the vote onto Leafsnail. But that's only if we can build trust with on another before the Mafia! Leafsnail figure out the saint.
Is actually a good summary of how SS3 works. As long as the super-saint hasn't claimed the mafia cannot safely hammer. It is correct for the super-saint to stay hidden until someone threatens to lynch them.

This is a setup where scum can gain a significant advantage from being the only player who understands the game, so I would be pretty surprised to see scum!LuckyOwl volunteer this analysis, especially when they could plausibly claim ignorance.

On the other hand:
Neither does the mafia, likes eh, but I guess I should have thought of that before being quite so bold...

Eh. Maybe Luckyowl can’t drag out the game if they’re one of the choices on the block.
This strikes me as suspicious. hector's first post was correct - it's safe to immediately vote as townie, and realistically it's unlikely that the mafia will follow a super-saint vote either. But what is the meaning of this walk-back, hector? What do you think you "should have thought of" before making this vote?

Luckyowl has claimed to be a vanilla townie, which suits me, because that means they’re scum.
This post strikes me as dishonest. One of LuckyOwl's posts did a good job of explaining why a super-saint would want to hide their claim. In fact, this post also clearly displayed some awareness that hiding your status as the super-saint could be beneficial:
I was hoping to it a bit more activity before bedtime, but I guess it is Sunday.

Hopefully I don’t wake up to having been quickhammered.

Or maybe I want that to happen? Oowoooooooooooo

*smashes a wine bottle on the floor and jumps out the window*
So given this, why would you immediately assume that LuckyOwl's townie claim is real and call him scum for it?

42
Mafia / Re: SS3 - 3 players mini mafia -IN SIGNUPS - 1/3 signed up
« on: January 17, 2021, 02:50:08 pm »
The mafia should probably win if no hammer is made before time runs out.

In. SS3 is actually a pretty weird setup.

43
Mafia / Re: Mafia Setup Discussion and Review
« on: January 17, 2021, 11:38:08 am »
Yeah I think the numbers may need tweaking. That said it is funny how one of the investigators giving a clear result on the SK actually outs them to one of the scumteams.

44
Mafia / Re: Vengeful Mafia 13 - D3 brings LYLO
« on: January 17, 2021, 11:15:58 am »
I was pretty sure Toony was town because a) he led the lynch on TricMagic day one and b) webadict was clearly setting up for a LuckyOwl vote on day three - if Toony were mafia it really looked like he could've won just by following webadict and voting Owl.

There is a lot of pressure when you're the deciding vote and it can be tempting to just abdicate all responsibility and leave it to chance, but that ultimately turns the game into a farce. You should weigh up the arguments for each possible scenario in your head and decide which one is more plausible to you. In addition I'd say that if you don't have any questions to ask of the other players you should probably try to come to a decision and end the game even if the deadline is a long way out - it's unlikely that waiting will make your decision any better.

Personally I would rather the final player comes to a decision using their reasoning and gets it wrong. That way it comes down to the strength of arguments and critical reasoning skills rather than chance.

45
Mafia / Re: BYOR 15: Game Over - Mafia Win (Kinda?)
« on: January 14, 2021, 06:42:20 pm »
https://twitter.com/NotThisCatAgain/status/1257761675962351620

Definitely a cool take on the role, thanks for running webadict.

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