Bay 12 Games Forum

Toonyman, on my honour as a scholar and a gentleman, I am not a spy. May my name be forever vilified and cursed and untrusted on this mafia forum if I should be found to be lying now. Is there any other person here that would stake their honour on this matter?

Tiruin

Quote

I've got a question though, Tiruin, can you give us some solid reasons why we should believe your mason claim?

Why should you, by the way? I put that out because the game was dying at the time. I put that out as hopes to get things rolling - obviously, I didn't state my whole team (because counter-intuitive to the goal, duh) but who I did state was true. Now the fun part is if you'd believe it or not, see my one post on WIFOM'ing scum.

What you've ended up doing is WIFOM'ing Town as well so whichever way you look at it, it was a lousy move.

Why Hapah? And the fact that Dariush is dead means...what? My supposed buddies have been quiet since when?

Hapah because you're claiming he's mason:

Masons: Me, Hapah, DS, TolyK.

Your supposed buddies have been relatively quiet on their purported masonhood

Hey, handsome. If you'd recall there were many other people who have 'consistently lynched town-folk' to use your own words. Using this as a foundation of your case is just wrong - as Vector said, you need to come up with concrete proof and not something as "Oh no, Tiruin's vote was on this person who lynched. He's town! Tiruin is suspicious."

See my latest analysis. I don't really think you're scum. Unvote.

Expound on the TolyK thing more though, quotes would be preferred.

What's there to expound? TolyK was mason, we don't need quotes to prove that. TolyK went up for vote and was scum-hammered. Unless you've got a terrible memory, I don't need quotes to prove that. Toaster's vote was on TolyK when TolyK was scum-hammered. Thus, Toaster is either an incredibly incompetent mason or not a mason at all. Toaster is not an inexperienced player so I don't think he's incompetent. Thus, as TolyK was a mason, Toaster isn't a mason.

0v? Also, Hapah claimed Mason?!

'0v' means 'zero votes'. It's just an artefact from my own notes (I have an excel spreadsheet on this). Hapah didn't claim mason, you claimed mason on his behalf or have you forgot that already?

And (mostly) finally, I'm getting what you were aiming at this whole time. Thanks for making it tabulated and with formatting!

I'm pleased you get it. The Big Point I've been pushing in this game is we should look at who voted for whom. I assume this response is no longer necessary:

And....your vote lies with me, but FoS on Toaster for what reason now?

Quote

In any case, now it's clear that Toaster is genuinely asking for replacement, I'll look into other people until a replacement is found.

He was genuinely asking for a replacement before that. Right now, I'm not even sure he's genuinely asking for a replacement as he's still voting and giving his opinion.

You're quite right. Toaster, you scummy appliance, are you playing or are you not playing?

---

Vector

. . . NQT, I have a really hard time believing that you're both town-aligned and having trouble figuring out Deathsword's mason claim.  Indeed, the person most interested in whether or not Deathsword would be telling the truth on that particular information should be the final scumbag.

Look I haven't pressured DS and Hapah on these points, and I when the claim was first made I did say to them not to answer me if they thought it would harm town:

Hapah
Question: do you think Tiruin's revelation will help the town team. Is he telling the truth? (If you think telling me whether Tiruin's telling the truth will damage team town, then feel free to ignore this question.)

What do you think about my case against Toaster?

DS
These are fair questions. In many ways I'm still finding my feet with Mafia. I probably haven't been applying as much pressure on people as I should have been. I would have changed my vote if it looked like there was still going to be a tie at day's end, but Dariush offed himself before it came to that.

Tiruin

Next,

Quote

What have I done? I've logically looked at how people have voted and offered up my suspicions based on this information. Technically, no one has caught any scum in this game, as they've all self-destructed. Dariush's death makes me think you're mason claim might be made-up.

What the-

...Alright, I really believe you're being super jumpy. One, you keep on worrying about 'IF MY CLAIM IS TRUE THEN WE'RE ALL DEAD'. Now...what is this?

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as jumpy. Tone can be hard to convey fully in a purely text-medium. My earlier worry was well-founded, I genuinely thought your mason claiming was an ill-judged move for town and I've explained quite sufficiently why this is the case. What is what exactly? I'm not being evasive here, I'm sure everyone else will agree with me when I say that sometimes your posts aren't as clear as they might be.

What do you think about my mason claim and its relevance according to the people mentioned, and their replies to it?

It depends. If you're telling the truth, it was an awful idea. The fact that Dariush is dead makes me think you were lying. Your supposed mason-buddies have been a bit quiet and non-committal on the issue as far as I can make out. Hapah, DS, was Tiruin's claim a good move for town?

What do you think about me, and my colleagues mentioned?

You looked suspicious before, having consistently lynched town-folk just like Dariush. Hapah and DS I read as fairly null nowadays. The only person I know almost certainly isn't a mason is Toaster (as he voted TolyK in a way likely to lead to Toly's death).

Now you see Dariush tried to shoot someone once he was convinced that he was going to be lynched - at least being useful before death. You vote Toaster because...either his vote was with Dar's, or he didn't vote Dariush. Toaster had no suspicions at that end (because he did request replacement and was busy) [Toaster needs to answer why he just jump-voted while being in replacement, giving off a blank reason why, though.] but that does not reconcile your efforts in...well, that.

Was that a pressure vote? If so, do you intend it to stay there? If not, what made it stick?

Now other than what Toaster did. What makes you think Toaster, among everyone else, deserve your vote?

Toaster voted for someone who later turned out to be a mason, so is probably either scum or town. Toaster also voted for Ford for bullshit meta reasons, which has made me consistently suspicious since then. I was pressuring Toaster on the Dariush issue but Dariush isn't the reason why Toaster looks guilty to me.

In any case, now it's clear that Toaster is genuinely asking for replacement, I'll look into other people until a replacement is found.

UNVOTE

And IMO, I think we did 'catch' scum. He just used an alternative which would at least do something other than wait and die

Sure, that's why I said 'technically'. But I take your point, town pressured him to death.

Have I answered your questions satisfactorily yet? I've got a question though, Tiruin, can you give us some solid reasons why we should believe your mason claim?

---

Proper Dariush post-lynch analysis upcoming.

Lord Magister Allagon, having telepathically struck a deal with the Archmage, slowly slinks out of existence, cryptoporting through one of the more disreputable dimensions. As magic is an exact science, he is replaced with a wizard of the same stature and academic credentials: Magister NQT, Lecturer in Indefinite Departures.

"Ah, sorry for my late arrival: hopefully my specialities in Metamagical Analysis and Runic Potentialities will quickly sort out the Warlocks from the Warnots. Now what did I miss?"

The Post With All The Answers
(I haven't bothered answering 'why are you lurking' type questions as they aren't really addressed to me. Everything else though.)

Nerjin

@Lord Allagon: Do you take a lynch-all-lurkers strategy? Why or Why not?

Not in this game mode. In BM, scum still have the advantage and so policy-voting is generally a bad idea. It is a bad idea because it's very easy to lynch inactive town-players. This is especially so when serial-lurkers can be replaced by active players (as in the case of my predecessor).

Superblast

@Everyone, Anybody got any good ways to come up with question? I'm having a hard time with that... and the first one to pop in my head turned out to be pretty bad WIFOM.

I think the accepted wisdom is that questions should be formed to create a cage to trap scum in. You ask players what they would do in situations that are likely to arise in game, and when they act contrary to their earlier statements you have the means to trap them in a prison of their own words.

@NQT: What would you do if you're scum that just been confirmed scum by the cop?

It depends whether the cop had claimed at this stage. If so, I would pour doubt on the authenticity of the cop's claim, perhaps by twisting earlier statements by the cop to arouse the suspicions of others. If unclaimed, I would act like both town and scum should when accused: calmly answer any questions with reasonable responses and try to avoid making statements that will later come back and haunt you.

Shakerag

Lord Allagon:  If someone claimed doctor, how would you decide whether to trust they're telling the truth?

It depends on what stage in the game it was. First of all, was there any evidence at that point that there was even a doctor in the game? How trustworthy had this person been in their earlier dealings? Either way, I'd want them to explain who they had protected and why. If they weren't killed in a night-kill after claiming, I'd want them to give a good reason why that might be. This would be complicated if there was a cop claim as well, as I could ask whether the purported cop had investigated their role or not. I'd also wonder why they were claiming doctor. The usual reason would be because they're up for a lynch.

Ultimately, like most things in this game, the claim would go out into the swamp of epistemological uncertainty, to be weighed up only in context of the trustworthiness of every single other claim.

Soldier

Lord Allagon: Say it's LYLO, and someone just claimed doctor. Do you trust/believe them? What if they claimed cop instead?

If they claimed doctor, I'd want to know everyone that they protected each night and why. If they gave a compelling answer, and I really pushed them on the details, then it might sway me to believing them but only in relation to the trustworthiness of the other person. If they were a cop, I'd want a similar record of who they investigated and what they did with this information. I'd want posts showing where they tried to sway town opinion away from innocents they'd investigated and posts showing where they'd led lynches on scum identified.

NQT: Welcome to the game. If you could choose any non-IC player here to be your scumpartner, who would you choose? Also, once you finish your read of the thread, I'd be interested in seeing your reads on the players.

I would chose Nerjin as I've played with him in other games here and have a better idea of his normal posting-style than other players. I would genuinely like to give you my reads but as I haven't formed them strongly yet, I think I'll have to re-read the thread and post that a little later, along with my questions to others.

Remuthra

Lord Al, when should you remove your vote, and when should you press?

You should remove your vote when you earnestly believe that you may be leading to the lynch of an innocent person. You should press when you're not convinced by the answers you've been given by your lynch-target and you have a reasonable suspicion that they may be scum and that in pursuing them you aren't letting more likely targets escape scrutiny.

Scum have the overwhelming advantage in this game. I hope to play this mode again but with town having some power roles. I'm having some pretty severe technical problems at my end (posting from phone right now). Hopefully, my pc will be working in the next day and I can give this thread and others my fuller attention.

Finally! Okay, we're on the home stretch now- we've only got one more scum to hunt down. The odds are almost irrevocably in out favour. Let's not lose sight of the goal.

Right, I'm convinced.

Notquitethere is a perfect example of deconstructionist scum.  Hang!

I appreciate the compliment- it's nice to know I purportedly perfect at something, but are you mad brother? Have you even read the thread? I was arguing that Dariush was most likely scum! But congrats are in order: you pegged Dariush for what exactly what he was. This gives me +points in your favour.

I'm not going to OMGUS, because, vote patterns taken into account, you're probably town. Highly mistaken, but probably town.

DS, it's a new day: who do you think is most likely scum?

Toaster- am I mistaken, but were you blind to Dariush's potential maleficence?

Tiruin

So if you've the time to answer, I believe he's been giving his statement (and do agree with you there) but also left enough space to consider other's arguments. He didn't state it like it was a law or a rule, though.

NQT: What do you have to say for that?

Say for what? What are you asking me? If you're asking me whether you gave a fair assessment of my position, sure: I didn't say it was a rule or law.

Also...wait what? You're dropping your theory and turn with the bolded part?

What shifted your attitude from this one?

No, I just know that despite it being a sensible way to proceed, other people don't find looking at voting patterns as compelling evidence as I do. I wanted to know what Vector thought, and now I do.

Vector
Okay, I can see your general reasons. What kind of information would it give us if Dariush turns out to be town?