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Messages - platypus

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16
DF General Discussion / Re: Can't Wait Any Longer Donatathon - Over $2000
« on: November 19, 2009, 09:03:09 pm »
I was going to wait until after the release, but someone annoyed me enough to prompt me to donate $100 right away.

GO TARN! \o/

17
DF General Discussion / Re: Thank you, Tarn!
« on: November 19, 2009, 08:49:57 pm »
It makes zero sense to talk about "supporting gaming" as if gaming is monolithic.  That's like saying he should "support politics" by donating money to corrupt politicians so they'll clean up their act.

Indeed. It appears the only thing he took away from my post was that I was, in this instance, guilty of piracy, and therefore baahaad. I've paid for more than one Bioware game in the past. And RIGHT NOW, I'm going to PayPal Toady $100. Then I don't want to hear more of this nonsense.

EDIT: Done. =P


18
DF General Discussion / Re: Thank you, Tarn!
« on: November 19, 2009, 08:38:50 pm »
Naw, It's just a practiced attack. I am rather calm :D... I come across so many people that are ready for that response. (:

Thank you for your nuanced view. ;)

19
DF General Discussion / Re: Thank you, Tarn!
« on: November 19, 2009, 08:11:08 pm »
Fantastic input, guys!

First of all:
If I'm not misunderstanding and you pirated it - go to hell, people like you are the number one reason PC gaming is dying and what games we do get are watered down console garbage ports.

Take a cold shower. I understand your anger, but it's misdirected. You'll notice there is no demo version of DA:O. You'll also notice I mentioned I had low expectations. Please tell me why I should fork over the equivalent of $80 (in Norwegian currency - new games are expensive here) for a product I don't think I'll like and haven't had the opportunity to try for myself. Were I to do this, more often than not I'd be supporting the very system I'm trying to fight.

I don't endorse piracy. I have NO qualms paying for games. At a conservative estimate, I have probably spent to the tune of $10,000 on games and game-related products over the years, and I'll continue shelling out, for quality. In Norway, console gaming is a vastly larger market than PC gaming. There are no rental shops for PC games, you can't return games you don't like, and the second-hand market is non-existent. If you spot the cash, you'd better make sure it's a good investment, or that money is lost.

It sounds to me like the original poster just does not like RPGs.

As others have pointed out, it should be clear from my attitude that I do indeed like RPGs, I just don't often come across one that gets it right, or even mostly right. It's all about the willing suspension of disbelief: The more technically advanced a game gets, the more it mirrors reality in appearance (2D -> 3D, for instance), the harder it becomes to make that game world behave as the player would expect it to. Every time you replace a facet of the player's imagination with coded behavior, you raise the bar. A game like ADoM (or even Zork) can be more immersive than DA:O, not because it's more realistic, but because it gives itself fewer opportunities to fail by presenting the player with a glaring inconsistency.

As someone else pointed out, I think many fantasy game developers grossly underestimate the mental capabilities of the gaming public. People have been enjoying games for decades, and I'm not at all convinced today's games are inherently more enjoyable than the games of twenty years ago, even to a modern player.

One of my absolute favorite games is a pay-per-play text-only quasi-RPG MUD. It is wholly independent and has been in operation, profitable operation, for twenty years, and is still going strong. This is remarkable, considering the competition. It has a self-sustaining, player-run economy, a political hierarchy, farming, large-scale warfare, EXTREMELY complex, unmitigated PvP combat, a pantheon of active and in-character gods, and ends up modeling society very well. I say quasi-RPG, for though it purports to be an RPG, most people essentially play a version of themselves, shaped by the mechanics of the game world.

The best, or rather most successful, genuine RPG I've played, also happens to be a text-only MUD. Now, why do you think this is?

EDIT: Before someone draws the (incorrect) conclusion that I simply don't like graphical RPGs, let me mention one I loved as a kid: Ultima Underworld II (for the few who remember it) - certainly a linear game by the standards of this thread, but it did a lot of things right. It didn't have a tutorial, which I entirely agree is a horrible concept. Let the player learn by trial and error. It also required the character to eat, NOT to replenish his health points - which is idiotic - but to avoid starving to death.


20
DF General Discussion / Re: Thank you, Tarn!
« on: November 19, 2009, 07:08:22 am »
Anyhow, someone could make mod that fixes all the OPs grievances with DA ... more interactivity, plot adjustments, realistic loot. But DF is still going to be bad game for him.

It looks like you've fundamentally missed the main thrust of my case here. The game is flawed - to me - at the conceptual level, and no amount of superficial modding is going to save it.

And I'm not sure where you're getting the impression that DF is "a bad game for me." I adore it, which should be perfectly clear from my starting this laudatory thread. EDIT3: Ah, you meant DA. =)

EDIT2: I agree with Rilder that any forced decision will impose some linearity on the gameplay, but there's a chasm of difference between the rigidity of play in Morrowind, and that of DA:O. Clearly, less is more. The ultimate game has no set story, but generates believable storylines organically, which is obviously what DF is working toward. It's an altogether worthy goal. One could argue you'd never get the same depth of narrative you'd see in a carefully scripted game, but I've yet come across a game that really delivers on this point. These are game-developers, not authors. And besides, a story feels far more genuine and meaningful if it intricately intersects with, depends upon, and arises from the mechanics of the game world, rather than is imposed upon them.

21
DF General Discussion / Re: Thank you, Tarn!
« on: November 19, 2009, 06:47:54 am »
Quote from: KaelGotDwarves
I'm just going to post this here.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Thanks for that! xD

Quote from: Spiral42
...the same reasons that a huge community of people are still playing Morrowind over and over again...

I remember playing The Elder Scrolls: Arena avidly (which dates me more than I'd like, though I'm still in my 20s), which is essentially ADoM in a faux 3D environment. It had the roughest, most tenuous main plot, and mostly the player did whatever the hell he wanted, within the larger, very loose, confines of the greater story. The game was extremely flawed, but it had a consistent, lingering freedom that to me made it more immersive than anything BioWare has ever churned out - and I mostly enjoyed Baldur's Gate. The realization that someone's forcing your hand at every turn is potently off-putting.

Upon first entering a new game world, I want to be overwhelmed. I want to have to spend considerable time just getting my bearings, figuring out how everything works, sussing the internal logic of the game universe. With DA:O (which I'm only singling out to illustrate my point - there are worse games), I felt like I knew everything I needed to know within two minutes of playing. I can't imagine that game even has a manual. It's thoroughly arcade, and clearly influenced by the restraints of console play. The combat is somewhat layered, but still conceptually very simple, and plays like a separate RTS, a feeling that is strongly reinforced by the pausing system, the point of view and the party-style character controls.

Like I mentioned, the high point, for me, was character creation. Once the game started, at no time did I get the impression this was a living, breathing world, or indeed anything but a strictly scripted play-along presentation. Gothic II, also far from perfect (and, tellingly, coming from a more independent, fringey software house), came far closer to actually making me care.



22
DF General Discussion / Re: Thank you, Tarn!
« on: November 19, 2009, 05:02:28 am »
Besides, it is HIGHLY entertaining to track who betrayed whom.

We likely have different standards of entertainment. Again, if I wanted to passively unravel a mystery, I'd read a book.

EDIT: I don't mean to sound haughty. I mostly respect your point of view. ;)

23
DF General Discussion / Re: Thank you, Tarn!
« on: November 19, 2009, 04:59:09 am »
I appreciate your comments. You obviously enjoy the game, which is fine. I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this, so let me just address a couple of your points.

You had silly expectations that game simply can not meet.

My expectations were generally low, despite the gushing hype found on (most, there are exceptions) major review sites. Which is why I downloaded the game, to try it out.

RPG players have these kleptomaniac tendencies to take everything get get their hands on and to sell them for profit.

You probably should not presume to know how an arbitrary RPG-player will play his game. Moreover, it seems to me you're describing a power-gamer.

24
DF General Discussion / Re: Thank you, Tarn!
« on: November 19, 2009, 04:42:23 am »
There is a problem doing non-linear story* based games, in that you have to have built content for whichever path the hero chooses.

Yes, this is true. And the degree to which a game adheres to a story is inversely proportional to the degree of freedom available to the player. I'm not against story-driven games, I just very rarely come across a story worth playing through for the story itself, it's always what's between the pivotal, scripted moments that's interesting - the side quests, the free exploration, the character building - which usually has very little to do with the main story arc.

I think there's a lot to be said for emergent behavior. Given sufficient complexity, you can generate loose, dynamic stories within which to frame the gameplay. I'd often take suggestion and innuendo over a bombastic this-is-how-it-happened narrative, leaving the details to my imagination. The mind will always try to connect the dots.

25
DF General Discussion / Re: Thank you, Tarn!
« on: November 19, 2009, 04:31:18 am »
How is it that a company with a million-dollar budget, staffed with professional artists, game-designers and programmers, can't turn out a product that can hold a candle to Dwarf Fortress - an obscure and largely uncompensated effort by one man, his brother and a cat?

I think you're right in that this has everything to do with market research and revenue generation. For some perverse reason, the target demographic is willing to pay hundreds, sometimes thousands, of dollars per capita per year for these hopelessly shallow click-fests.

26
DF General Discussion / Re: Thank you, Tarn!
« on: November 19, 2009, 04:13:43 am »
Well, here's the thing: It plays and feels like an MMO, which is a gross misdesign, since the primary draw of an MMO is the player-player interaction, of which there naturally is none in DA:O, being a single-player game.

It is a game of dress-me-up dummies shackled in a prison of gaudily tinted cardboard sets, where the greatest degree of personal freedom is found, paradoxically, in the physical attribute section at character creation.

If I see something, I want to be able to interact with it, otherwise it's a flag of disbelief. A lofty ideal, for sure, but this is one of the dangers of replacing personal imagination with the statically rendered snapshot reality of most games. If I don't feel like I'm in an organic, dynamic world - it doesn't have to be realistic, it doesn't have to be complete, but it DOES have to be internally consistent - I'd rather read a book.

And, again, whoever wrote the dialogue options needs to be strung, drawn and quartered.

27
DF General Discussion / Thank you, Tarn!
« on: November 19, 2009, 03:25:07 am »
Is it just me, or are the vast majority of today's commercial games flashy, linear, non-interactive shlock?

Yesterday, I downloaded Dragon Age: Origins, a game touted as the one of the games of the decade, a purportedly fantastic role-playing experience that has been receiving the grandest praises (it has one of the highest scores on Gamespot, for any game, ever).

Within one hour, I am COMPLETELY disillusioned.

Behind the polished presentation, there is absolutely nothing interesting. There is almost no interaction with the world you're trying desperately to immerse yourself in, and the few things you can interact with - a chest here, a door there - sparkle jauntily as soon as they're in sight, screaming "Click me!"

The combat is similarly unconvincing. The game throws mobs at you, seemingly arrayed in splendid armor, bashing away at you with oversized weapons, only to leave you bemused when you kill one, clicking its (now sparkling) body only to discover A PIECE OF ELFROOT is the only item you can remove from the stiff, battle-clad corpse.

The game is intensely linear and holds your hand throughout. By dint of little flashing icons, it tells you where to go and whom to interact with to unlock the next segment of the story. There is no free exploration, and even if there were, the world is so lifeless I'm not sure I'd want to slog through more of it.

It feels like it's one of those ghastly novelty books from the 80s, where you read a few pages, get to a critical juncture upon which you're faced with a series of "choices", where, depending on your predilection, you're told to thumb to page 32, or 54, or 98, to discover what will befall your protagonist. It's a movie with pause screens and a branching story - a horribly written one at that.

Is this what games have come to? Is today's average game consumer really this dumb? The experience was so stultifyingly tedious, it was all I could do to keep myself from screaming. And the storytelling - ostensibly a high point - makes me wonder whether anyone who likes this game has ever read a single page of serious literature.

So! In short: Thank you, Tarn, for creating an intelligent, deeply satisfying sandbox game that is everything modern games are not. Your work goes a long way toward restoring my faith in the future of gaming.

- Mr. Platypus

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