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You're right of course that it's not relevant as an ethical point today, except of course that there are several million Palestinians who have been in exile for the past 60 years and nobody knows what to do with them. And of course I'd say it's ethically relevant to stress that fact, and to stress the pre-Israel history of Palestine. There's an Israeli group called Zochrot that posts signs and disseminates information about the Palestinian villages that were left empty after 1948 when their inhabitants weren't allowed to come back, which is the kind of of history lesson some nations face up to after the fact, but a lot of Israel has so far been reluctant to.
Course there's history denial on both sides, holocaust denial is quite common among uneducated Arabs, which stems from exactly the same motive as nakba denial or what have you, or any kind of revisionist history - an attempt to morally justify what your own side did by rewriting history to make your side undeniably the good guys, victims, or what have you.
QuoteI never whipped out that argument. I spent a good part of a post explaining why it was stupid. Are you even reading anything I writeQuoteSo have plenty of other people. Relevance?None to me. When you whip out the "first" argument it's good to keep things in perspective.
In reality Israel bends over backwards rather than just kicking the whole muslim population out of their country
See this is part of the problem
The Muslims were there first and basically all they're asking for (besides the minority of extremists; the rest of the terrorists - who are also a minority I might add - join up with them because they grow up in apartheid ghettos under military occupation with no human rights) is to be able to live in their own country in peace
That's why I keep saying if you would change the conditions that Palestinians are forced to live in then terrorists would lose their support, it's that simple. They would become a bunch of fringe wackos with no foot soldiers to do the dirty work. The foot soldiers are poor kids who grew up in hell on earth with no future, and if they had better lives they would not join up with terrorists. There are plenty of Israelis who realize this. Unfortunately, they're not in power, and even when they are none of them have the balls to stand up to the settler movement.
That's why I think Israeli extremists are more dangerous and scary than Palestinian ones. (well, and the Israeli extremists have a government and army to do their dirty work for them). The Palestinian ones have been turned into extremists by being oppressed for decades. The Israeli ones are wackos who could live a perfectly comfortable life in Tel Aviv, or for that matter, in Brooklyn (where plenty of them come from) but insist that God wants them to conquer the promised land again
I completely agree that Israel's fucking things over, just to make it clear. I just think that any "I was here first" argument is complete bullshit, and it's not the reason WHY Israel is wrong. I happen to think that a lot of Palestinian methods are wrong, too, but given their opponent I can't come up with a better solution, all I can do is condemn the murders they do commit. Honestly, both sides need to try and make this a moral war, not a tactical war. The side that stops killing people to achieve their goals is the side likeliest to win in the end, but the trouble is nobody's willing to do that because everybody feels (somewhat justly) wronged.I don't think either side can or should make it a "moral war." The only possible hope for peace is if Israel withdraws the settlers and the occupation, and meanwhile if everyday people make efforts to raise their kids to have respect for each other. One of the NGOs I might work with runs summer camps for that exact purpose. The idea being that if you have kids grow up seeing the other side as actual people (which you'd be amazed how little that happens) then they'll grow up into adults who will treat the situation like adults, as opposed to what's being done now.
QuoteActually, back on topic, this is what I meant with Quaritch. He's got a legitimate problem with the Na'vi, which is that they killed his friends and are a constant threat to his life and career. The trouble is, the Na'vi have a legitimate problem with the humans, which is that they're basically invading and conquering their homeland without any concern for the locals. The main problem with the analogy is that Quaritch chose to go to Pandora, which means he put himself in that situation, and that's really the only thing in my mind that really makes him out-and-out evil instead of a shades-of-grey-asshole. He's too prideful to realize that his problems were a clear and necessary outcome of his own choices about his life.
Yeah, again, an interesting character analysis - which I somehow doubt was actually present in the movie, given how shallow its characterization was :\ Still, the fact that he chose to go to Pandora would make me pretty unsympathetic to his loss of friends in fighting there.
I completely agree that Israel's fucking things over, just to make it clear. I just think that any "I was here first" argument is complete bullshit, and it's not the reason WHY Israel is wrong. I happen to think that a lot of Palestinian methods are wrong, too, but given their opponent I can't come up with a better solution, all I can do is condemn the murders they do commit. Honestly, both sides need to try and make this a moral war, not a tactical war. The side that stops killing people to achieve their goals is the side likeliest to win in the end, but the trouble is nobody's willing to do that because everybody feels (somewhat justly) wronged.
Again, you miss the point that "I was there first" isn't automatically invalid. If by "I" I mean, myself, as in, I was living there in my house and was kicked out to make room for somebody else, and right now I'm living somewhere else because I was kicked out from the house that I was probably going to leave to my children when I die, and dude, that TV you're watching, I bought it, and you're eating my food, I was right there like ten minutes ago and you kicked me out because your caveman great-great-great-ancestor lived in a cave that used to be under my garage, versus "I was there first" as in, hey, I'm descended from Aztecs so I have the right to break into the Mexican's president house and kick his ass out on the street and move to his couch.
