Bay 12 Games Forum

Quote from: Urist McOverlord on May 04, 2010, 01:06:29 pm

Quote from: Eduren on May 04, 2010, 12:46:56 am

Quote from: Urist McOverlord on May 03, 2010, 11:11:17 pm

1. Time travel screws up EVERYTHING. Even for the fans.

One of the Star Trek movies?

But which one?

The newest one. The reboot.

Eduren wins.
Now how 'bout the rest of 'em?

I'll take a soldier-pilot in US.

Alright. I agree with your redefinition of Godwin. Sorry about the fail. Now. MOAR ON-TOPIC DISCUSSION!

*ahem*

Neruz: let's take physical pain out of the picture for a moment. look at all the people who act in a right way, motivated solely by their (emotional) values. In many cases, there is no practical advantage to acting in this way. But people do behave in a moral fashion regardless, so clearly emotion can motivate people, yes?

Am I free, at least.

Jeeminy, the way you guys keep tryin' to take yourselves apart, you're going to need me to put you bqack together.

I say 5, and save the last one to grow a bit more.

There is no difference, both are sets of values. Yes, one might be more constructive than the other, but no objective scientific theory ever said "constructive" is "better". It's all values and emotions again, and it all depends on your long-term goals.

While I agree with most everything in your post, I feel that this line begins to tread on dangerous ground. While science doesn't say that "constructive" is "better," And while it is true that most societies with destructive values tend to get weeded out, on an individual level, these destructive values can still cause problems. If there's anything we can learn from the current War on Terror, it's that some few individuals with a destructive value system can cause all variety of problems. It is for these individuals and that we need the stick, to continue the metaphor.

And while I'll agree that law is rarely, if ever, an effective stick, it is a potential stick.

EDIT for quotefix.

Yeah. I think the point we're trying to make is that the emotion comes into it not during the evaluation (e-value-ation), but when deciding what to consider in the first place.

That said, I'm with you in disagreement with Kuraudo's original point. However, it isn't that fear doesn't play into the decision-making process, but instead that fear is not the only factor, and is in fact one of the weaker ones.

Back on topic, though:
Fear of divine retribution is an inherently weak motivation for moral action, because:
A) Divine retribution generally tends to happen after what we generally know to be "the end."
B) We have no real evidence that said retribution ever actually occurs. We don't get to visit relatives having a stint in hell.
C) Retribution itself is rarely a strong motivator. Even fear of legal retribution (which avoids many of the aforementioned problems) is ineffective to the point that those who do do right from fear will still do wrong if they believe they can get away with it. Retributive justice is only as effective as those enforcing it, and with divine retributive justice, we really don't have anything but our own faith, and the word of clergymen that it's ever going to happen.

I'd say that values (defined as "an ideal accepted by some individual or group") and ideals (defined as "a principle or value that one actively pursues as a goal") that form the core of any moral decision-making process. In so much as we value not being imprisoned, the fear of punishment can motivate us. But that is a rather weak value, as easily evidenced by the scores of people who commit actions that get them sent to prison each year. And considering we have clear evidence, in the form of visible prisons, clear knowledge that many criminals are caught, and (in many cases) knowledge of some of the processes by which it occurs, this is far stronger than a vague threat of eternal suffering from a potential omnipotent diety.

Of course, maybe I'm just applying my skeptical eye to the whole thing. I'm sure a true believer wouldn't need evidence to support their belief (as has already been mentioned in this thread at least a dozen times).

I put a comma instead of a period...
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Imma GENIUS!
*twitch* *twitch*