Bay 12 Games Forum

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I don't disagree with anything you have said. Where did get get that impression? I didn't say I don't purchase DLC. I said I have not, for these particular games. I have continued to push the point since my second post that all these pulled content claims are nothing but rumor. This point is where I claimed experience or evidence is needed.

Four people latched onto an off topic side discussion about how many games ship free content. They quoted an explanatory statement of mine that I considered their games Below Quality, took offense, and somehow managed to drag out an argument over an entire page all the while failing to cite their specific disagreement and simultaneously decreeing everything I have said invalid based on my opinion of their favorite games. Is this what confused you?

... I am actually beginning to grow confused on where you stand. Are you just saying things to be contrary? You seem to shift your position in such a way as to simply disagree with anybody who posts.

Several posters argued the same as I have been back on pages 1-3.

dun Dun DUUUN.

I get it. If you dislike a person, that person must be wrong. Gotcha.

The only one who mentioned DA was fenrif, and he did so in a roundabout way. Anyway, this argument is like two blind and deaf persons in a shouting match.

fenrif didn't state it in a roundabout way - he was writing of the golem in particular. Boski agreed with him. So did Sensei. All the while, a discussion raged on the original basis of the content being Bioware related.

That's three if you can count, plus the discussion. Everyone else failed to cite a specific game; are their statements uncontestable because they are too vague?

I didnt see ANYONE say that the 0 day release stuff for dragon age was on the disc stuff, I myself said that wasn't probobly the case. Way to go to extreme lengths to build yourself a strawman. I said they have locked content out on the disc before, not that the golem was an example of it. Just because this one specific example (which NOONE claimed was allready on disc) wasnt, doesnt mean they haven't done it before, or will do it again.

No one was specific; they either made a general statement or implied it. Oh, and the article itself mentions only DragonAge. Oh, and the entire debate over three pages was centered on the claim of it being Bioware related.

Also, you seemed to forget the most important part of what I said: if I proved that DA did not ship (entirely) on-disc, how many of the other claims are true? If you can prove me wrong I will cheer you on. I don't care about being right, I care about establishing the truth. I said previously that on-disc cut content does not mean all the content is there. Show me the proof.

You, as i have said, have no new insight into this that we don't allready have. YOU DONT WORK FOR BIOWARE. So all you have is your opinion, and you're not doing a very good job of conveying it because you keep insulting everyone and acting like your intrinsicly a smarter person because you dong agree with everyone else.

Falsifiable statements made by larson: around 50
Falsified statements made by larson: 0
Falsifiable statements made by others: 0

You're waging an argument based on your personal feelings. Emotion has no place in argumentation.

It isn't on us to prove otherwise, because we can't. And it's not on you to prove that bioware/EA are telling the truth, because you can't. It's just a matter of opinion with no evidence either way, but judging by how EA runs its buisness i know what i believe, and alot of people agree with me.

Yes, you can prove truth in the rumor. In the same way that I disproved the Bioware case: you can examine the DLC content before making unsubstantiated claims. It's not so hard.

People similar to you are the parents who claim vaccines gave their children autism against all evidence otherwise. You're arguing from ignorance, claiming a truth because it is not falsified. It's not my responsibility to prove you wrong; it's your responsibility to prove you are correct. Stop it with the conformity, and use your brain for once.

So I went and... obtained... Stone Prisoner, all for a game I don't even own or have [ever had] installed. And then prompty erased it. I bet you can already guess what I found.

I tried to make this unnecessary, earlier on. I said that artistic assets are created well before a game is finished, well before the decision on whether to use those contents are finalized. Well before it is understood whether it can be used. Long before the testing and QA phase, long before serious design flaws are found [too late]. Before supporting assets are in place to make it use of it. Before time constraints are realized, dropping it to the lowest priority list. Before the dead weight is cut, just like hundreds of other features you have never heard about. But of course, few of you read more than a sentence; somehow, I can't possibly know more than your preconceived notions, is that it?

tl;dr. Here's what I found: data entries, animations, creature & item definitions, blueprints, scripts, textures, GUI elements, assorted models, pathfinding AI, textures, dialog, tools (?), shaders (I believe - they are packed), and more.

I even predicted this exact list on the last page:
Some of it was perhaps finished already. Most of it, however, are things that come in the late stage of project development. Models and sounds (which are assumed to be on the disc) significantly predate them.

So the answer to the question, Did the Stone Prisoner content exist on the disc? is No! Most of it, almost the entirety of it, is added by the DLC pack.

Some of you will respond, "but it was all cut from the game!" And I can't deny that, but neither can you confirm it - only Bioware or the word of God can (if you believe in God - I don't). But guess what? Bioware's testimony by its own designer, a working knowledge of the development cycle, and supporting info (bugged doors) all suggest otherwise. It's on you to prove otherwise. And suspicion alone doesn't really cut it. Not for me anyway; I know it will for some.

In closing: I have a bridge to sell you in Alaska. Hey, did you hear 9/11 was a fake? (Don't you just love how polite I am?)

Yes, I said they were crap, said it was in my opinion, in parenthesis, after I said I did not play them, thus indicating a reason I was giving for not playing them. A misunderstanding, then? Why do you care what I think about certain games, anyway? OK, back to the topic.

Quote from: larson on March 14, 2010, 12:56:14 am

Where did I claim to be a critic?

I'd like to say, whether or not you claimed to be has no bearing on the fact you are criticizing non-the-less. The problem is you have confirmed that you have no personal experience with the games in question. This leaves your credibility hanging out the window sill.

You expect me to go back through thousands of games since 1996 and Quake 1, and dutifully list whether they received large free content updates?

Any modder or serious game player can answer whether the majority did: No!. Modders can also answer if all contained cut content: Yes!

Why is most silly and completely off topic part of this thread being rehashed, again and again?

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Tell me: all Bioware had to do to enable the entirety of this was set the value of bGolemEnabled=0 to 1 (figuratively speaking). I seriously doubt this, as I outlined earlier, as stuff is always cut at the last moment, or simply never finished, regardless of game.

If this is true, then Bioware's motives are even more obvious: they cut it because of the door issue, so that it would not appear in previews and harm the game's public image. As a bonus piece it is separate from the game itself, and although it requires a fee, DA itself becomes mostly immune from criticism due to its flaws.

tl;dr insult. Bla bla. If you're not prepared to produce something backing your claims, don't be surprised when your credibility is questioned. I've listed why content gets dropped, when it does, and how - if you can disprove them or provide a counter-claim I welcome it.

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When did I say it was relevant? I told you why I didn't play the games: I thought they were crap. I don't need to play them to think they are crap.

I gave my reasons for ignoring Valve's games. Valve places more attention on their consumers for good reason. MMO's are content only and have subscribers. X is Egosoft's only child. And as I said, even if some of the others are legitimate, most games published (and developed) today (and historically) do not in fact add big content in patches. (NWN is a different story now that I remember: it hoped to keep afloat on modules a la MMO, thus supported the game, and it flopped regardless - lesson learned by Bioware.)

... The problem is when chunks of the game are taken out and sold separately just to get more money out of the game. Not all day-0 DLC is like this, but a good portion of it is.(Whether or not the golem falls under this, I don't know, probably not because they gave an actual reason it wasn't released with the rest of the game)

Yes, that does seem to be where the confusion lies. I don't believe Bioware is lying, because their story is not only consistent but rings true with anyone who has had a deadline to deliver on. And I trust their obligation to their word, over some random people on the Internet. Even if I have a negative opinion of Bioware.

How about f) fix the buggy content. If the game is not yet released then there is still time to fix the bugs, instead of pulling those features entirely. True, there is a period before the release that it's too late to do this, after the game is in production, but often the DLC is announced beforehand, meaning it was planned to be day-0 DLC, instead of some sort of last-minute bug-fix.

I posted earlier how the release process isn't only a month. Post-production can last anywhere between 2-6 months before that. Inserting [semi] major changes, like creature door passthrough, is frowned upon during this period.

Also, you didn't seem to understand this, so here it is, bolded for effect: not a single AAA game in existence has shipped without unused content. 99% do not add these after the fact unless it is part of an (paid for) expansion.

Quote from: larson on March 13, 2010, 07:56:35 pm

That's not a very fair list (and Egosoft is only known for X).

THIS POST DISAGREES WITH MY VIEWPOINT AND PROVES MY ARGUMENT INVALID, IT ISN'T FAIR

Egosoft's only project is the X series. If they fail their userbase, they file Chapter 11 tomorrow.
Valve fills a niche spot in the game business. Their success depends on maintaining a loyal customer base that picks up anything with their name on it. To that end they established the most open development model in the business and openly reward their fans when appropriate.


[If you're counting, below is the third time I have re-phrased my point. Cheers.]

I'm going to make myself vulnerable here and assume some modder discovered the models/audio for "Golem" in the original data files. Big conspiracy, right? Guess again. Modelers/animators/sound/artists/level designers do not work in unison with the rest of the team. These people are usually brought in or reassigned to replace concept and placeholder work all in one go, long before the game is ever completed.

So what can be missing in "Golem"? It's finished already. No, it's not close to finished. Scripting, AI, animation, levels, quests, dialog, touchups/lipsyncing/etc., items/creature definitions, sfx/shaders, texts, quirks/bugs, ... and more. Even the tiniest issue delaying the aimed for release date means it gets yanked, if it was ever in place to begin with. It (apparently) has no importance on the rest of the game.

Sheesh, the way you people act, it's easier to believe in a grand cover-up conspiracy to liberate you of your hard earned money, than it is in something that happens every day in the corporate world. For a recreational activity no less!

Yes, free stuff would be nice. But - please help me out here - I can't even successfully recall a game that has done so. I'm sure there are a few at least. Can you think of any?

Basic methodology after release: patch for stability, expansion for extras. Expansions take time and are not well suited for original campaign content. DLC means it exists at least.

"oh hey, weve got this party member, hes really interesting and has sidequests and stuff, lets take him outadd him to the game and sell him as DLC!

Fixed.

... We'll tell them something crap about how we couldnt figure out how to make him fit through doors in time, they'll buy that!"

Wtf? Not only is this a perfectly logical bug, it also happens to contradict your claim that the Golem was not added.

Isn't there a single programmer or at least someone who understands the game development cycle in this thread? Why are you people finding it so hard to believe that 0-day DLC cannot exist? I argue it should exist - the choices are (a mix of) a) work on DLC b) [few] work on patch c) work on expansion d) work on next game e) twiddle thumbs before release.

Incidentally, you unwittingly prove how effective DLC is. Instead of thinking, "I probably don't need this," you come across as a fool thinking he has been scammed and is missing out on a critical experience. Congratulations, you just might have an addictive personality.