Bay 12 Games Forum

Quote from: Microcline on May 03, 2012, 01:41:37 pm

There's no way any developer would try this as anything other than a bare-faced cash grab.

Oh come on. People have been clamoring for multiplayer in TES and a TES MMO for years now. It doesn't make it a good idea but is it really impossible they said "Hey, our fans really want this, maybe we should give them what they want?"

I've seen far more threads on their forums asking for spears, crossbows, and levitation.  Those are all things that can be implemented without throwing out the current system and are capable of appealing to the audience (how many games these days let you fly?).  When Bethesda is allowed to shrug off criticism for not listening to good advice by trivializing their install base, then they forfeit the ability to blame their mistakes on "we were just listening to the fanbase".  Every game has someone on the forums asking for it to be an MMO or an FPS.  That doesn't make it a good idea.

Quote

I think people who are disgusted with this move have every call to voice their opinion on this matter. If they are betraying what has been the genre of the series for so long now, we have to ask ourselves why, and historically speaking, there has been a recent trend with successful games switching genres to become MMOs or shooters because they are more profitable.

Betrayal is a very loaded term here. Is it so wrong to want to try new things? Personally I prefer that a company experiment and blend genres rather than put out the same old game over and over. To me, putting out a game that's been proven to sell well is more profit-oriented than taking a big risk in a genre you don't know if you're capable of handling. This isn't guaranteed to make them a lot of money, I'm actually more concerned about it losing so much money that TES VI is hurt.

There's no real way for TES to be transformed into an MMO without stripping out and replacing the gameplay features.  If changing genres forces the developer to strip a game down such that only the IP remains, why not create a new IP instead?  Things like FPSXCOM are only going to piss off the established base and the XCOM IP isn't going to bring in the FPS crowd.

Quote

Therefore it is not unreasonable to think that this is a cash grab, or that it will put the series into stasis, or that it will destroy a gameplay style we have all come to love.

It is totally unreasonable considering we have heard barely anything on the subject. Any conclusions we come to are wild speculation but I really think you are overreacting with words like betray and destroy. Furthermore, I doubt it will put the series into stasis since they have been working on it since partway through Skyrim. It's obvious they have separate teams working on this and the mains series.

Looks like this is another HeroEngine game.  It's kind of funny that an engine appropriate for low budged Korean MMOs and indie games (that has only recently been officially released and is still not feature complete) is constantly being used to make multi-hundred-million dollar AAA WoW derivatives.  This one's already got the moniker "TESuvius".

Quote from: Dariush on May 01, 2012, 01:29:26 pm

Program it yourself. RPG makers are dumbed-down, limited in features and you won't improve your programming skill with them.

Frank Lloyd Wright didn't build houses with his bare hands.

The amount of overhead to make a game from scratch is tremendous. I do it, but I've been doing this for years, and I still work with others to lighten the load. I've seen numerous projects crash and burn because they ran into technical difficulties and couldn't fulfill their vision -- or because the teams got bogged down on boring fiddly implementation bits, reinventing the same wheel already used hundreds of times by hundreds of other teams. If someone wants to make a game, and is drawn to using a pre-made toolset, but gets scared off because somebody on a forum told them they should be doing everything from scratch instead, they're almost certain to meet the same fate. On the other hand, use tools, and the feedback loop from work you put into the game is shortened to a fraction of what it would be. Effort turns into results quickly and powerfully.

I used to think using game maker programs was weak, a crutch for the less capable and less ambitious, one I myself only leaned on because I couldn't do any better. Then I went to college, majored in software programming for games, became a design intern at a studio developing an MMO, and eventually graduated and started my own business as an independent developer. Now that I've worked on more than half a dozen finished games myself, I no longer have such elitist preconceptions.

I've personally seen programmers come up with amazing technology, only to desperately search for someone with the creativity to put it good use. I've personally seen designers who hate even basic scripting, but can perform absolute wizardry when given a good editor. DIY game development may sound badass, but in the real world, companies spend hundreds of thousands of dollars paying programmers to do nothing but write tools exactly like this for their own internal use. Not only does it save money by accelerating development times, it enables their often very talented designers to forget about programming everything from scratch and focus on what's really important -- making a fun game.

My initial reaction was also the essential essay Make games not engines.  However, there's a reason that Yume Nikki is the only RPGMaker game to receive an overall positive reaction (Ao Oni, The Way, and Exit Fate could also be argued, but they are at best heavily flawed and extremely subject to user reaction).  Most of these games required their developers to work around RPGMaker's natural flaws to make their game, perhaps taking longer than it would to replicate the functionality in code.  My personal opinion is that RPGMaker is valued more for the inclusion of default sprites and music rather than the engine.

I've seen great things done with GameMaker, but I don't know if it's actually capable of reducing the time needed to become good at game development.  We've seen a crop of people who've developed the ability to use it extremely well (Dan Remar comes to mind), but it's worth noting that they've been using it for 5+ years.

In the end, I think the best option is the proper integration of a high-level language of your choice with pre-existing libraries (or even an engine, if you can find one that fits your idea).  This gives you the ability to treat components as "black boxes" like with a game maker, but doesn't limit you or require you to use workarounds if you want it to do something different.

tl;dr Learning to do anything well takes time, and learning to use a language won't take that much longer and will leave you much more flexible

Some languages you might consider:
C/C++: I wouldn't use this for gamedev unless you have previous experience with it or work with it professionally.  On the other hand, it's fast, solid, and has an extensive and ever-growing number of libraries.  You'll probably want a bit of fluency in it at some point to look at the large number of examples written in it (reading the Nethack source is pretty much a right of passage)
Java: It's clean, portable, and has excellent networking.  There aren't as many game focused libraries for it though.  It isn't as slow as people often claim, but I wouldn't program something with huge memory requirements like Minecraft in it though.
Python: It's a great place for non-programmers to start, but if you have any experience with other languages you'll hate it
C#+XNA: If you aren't concerned with portability, this is what to use.  It's fast, clean and hassle free.  Visual Studio is the best IDE I've used.
Flash: I haven't used it, but I suspect it's one of the best things for aspiring devs, especially given the development of Flixel and Flashpunk

That said, there's nothing really wrong with GameMaker.  In the end the biggest challenge with RPGs (the RPGMaker-styled JRPG ones, at least) is that unlike other types of games that the bulk of the work is in the art assets rather than the programming.

I'm pretty okay with the floater redesign.  In the original, floaters were something of a joke as they had low defenses, no psionics, and their terror unit was a giant target that needed to close into melee range to do anything.

I do somewhat miss the old anti-grav system.  In the original, the only thing that they had going for them was that you never knew when a floater was hiding behind a building, and making them hyper-aggressive seems to limit this.  While I'm not advocating a return to turns of looking for the last alien, it would be nice if some of the aliens set up ambushes for the player instead of rushing into battle.

I've got to say that this really looks like a repeat of Spore.  While I'm always interested in reductionism in games, I can't see Glassbox working without a fairly long development cycle.  What's probably going to happen is that EA's going to pressure for a release, and it's going to get neutered or removed.  Unless there's been a major shakeup in EA's management and business practices, I'd strongly doubt that they have the willingness or capability to do something like this.

Quote from: Kilroy the Grand on April 22, 2012, 11:06:51 am

Quote from: Domenique on April 22, 2012, 10:46:41 am

So basically they told they will do something and they didn't. Welcome to the human race.


Also, it's true that journalists are mostly sold out, but you can't blame them, they can't bite the only hand that is feeding them.

"Oh, you were told your car got 32mpg, but actually gets 16? Oh well

You can't blame car magazines, or reviewers they can't bite the hand that feeds them."

You can think that, but some people are opposed to holding their buttcheeks open while being hatefucked.

First of all, a car is a much bigger investment. Second of all, the game was fine, except the ending. The "choices matter'' actually made into the game, just in a half-assed manner of some "assets".

Nice comparison.

I would be fine if you guys said you were disappointed with the ending, or with the game as a whole, and your opinion is right to you. But you just go on whining and whining about it. Maybe I can't blame you, you guys obviously grew up in greenhouse environment, where everything is put on a bloody plate for you and like cats you start screaming and biting if the hand stroking you goes one millimeter wrong. Instead of just trying to get the best out of something you paid for. I grew up with spoiled relatives and I definitely see that in all of those who are bitching about this shit instead of stating that they're unsatisfied and moving on to do something worthwhile. Final Fantasy VII had a much worse ending, but I didn't see anybody stick up a dynamite up his ass and exploding with shit all over the internet. What's with the Y generation.

If we aren't focused on the awful ending, what are we supposed to focus on?  The content cut for day 1 DLC?  The smear campaign against anyone criticizing the game?  The fact that it installs spyware on your computer?  The popamole shooting galleries?  The rigid separation of story and gameplay?  The fact that someone thought that a space ninja with bullshit plot armor was a good villain that fit with the setting?  The fact that the game played out exactly the same regardless of choices made?

If we are treating gaming as a business, their treatment of their customers is unforgivable.  If we are treating it as an art, their reaction to criticism has ensured that like Buckley and Shyamalan they will stagnate, never realizing their flaws and seeking improvement.  As Erik Kain puts it in this article,

If anything, acts of gamer “entitlement” are mostly attempts at giving second or third chances to a developer or publisher. It’s a customer basically telling you exactly what’s wrong with your product before saying “We won’t buy your product ever again!”

That sort of information strikes me as quite useful, actually. Almost the sort of data you might pay for. But I’ve never been a big believer in the value of yes-men.

The "entitled" people complaining are the ones who think Bioware might still be capable of producing a decent product.  The ones who understand the extent of Bioware's hubris have already boarded the lifeboats and departed.

Also, you may want to drop the pretense that the "entitlement" argument is anything but a joke.  In a competitive environment, consumers are right to feel entitled to an outstanding commitment to service, as otherwise they are free to move to the competitors.  EA's inability to understand this has come around to bite them in the ass, and it could very well happen to sites such as IGN and Kotaku.

Got into this recently, and having a bit of fun. Never played the original, but I hear that it has enough of the same feel to keep people nostalgic.

Anyone have general tips on how to do well during games? I seem to have issues aiming at times (especially with the Sniper rifle, except on specific maps) but I also just started playing two days ago.

Team comp is fairly important.  You'll always want 2-3 pathfinders running capping routes and ready to chase, a doombringer on the flagstand, a sentinel covering the flagstand, and a technician maintaining the base.  You'll also want someone defending the generator, usually a Juggernaut or a Brute.  Other classes are more situational.  Raider and Infiltrator can work if you're good enough to break the enemy defenses, but aren't useful if you're always slaughtered at the base entrance.  Soldiers are good for controlling the midfield (stopping enemy Juggernauts/Sentinels and killing flag carriers).  If there are enemies on the flagstand a Juggernaut can get easy kills.

In the end it's mostly a matter of playing what you're good at.  Pathfinder requires knowledge of capping routes, Sentinel requires great reflexes, Soldier requires great spinfusor aim, Juggernaut requires accurate judgment of distances and ballistic arcs, Infiltrator requires you to be great at evading enemies using stealth and base features... If you want to learn a specific class I'd suggest looking for Youtube videos.

@micro, thumper/AR soldier is much better at defending and chasing than a spinfuser/eagle soldier, but it really comes down to personal preference. Technician is good at defending, but is a one trick pony in that it has no point damage that reliable enough i.e no smg.

The new weapons are currently banned in competitive games because no-ones figured out whether they're OP or not, but from my point of view they are.

Yeah, I'd agree that AR is viable for chasing.  I just tend to treat SLD as more of a midfielder for killing JUGs/SENs who could disrupt the defense/offense if left to their own devices, as flag carriers tend to fall more under the purview of SEN, DMB, and PTH.

Thumpertech may just be a product of playing in pubs.  I've killed a couple flag carriers with the smg, but TCN loses pretty much all effectiveness when the gen is destroyed and a smg TCN is entirely dependent on other classes to clear out the base when this happens as they're at a serious disadvantage against just about every base-rape class.

I'm just a bit wary given that it's nearly impossible to profit from an ethical F2P model, previous use of the model has resulted in the release of an overpowered $10 item every two weeks (Riot), and Hi-Rez has a somewhat poor track record with Global Agenda.