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Messages - palsch

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1006
Other Games / Re: Planetside 2: Free-to-Play MMOFPS. 2000 players/server.
« on: April 11, 2013, 11:28:22 am »
Quote from: darkrider2 on April 11, 2013, 10:12:54 am
The blitz is almost as good as a shotgun in close quarters. And you can shoot a little distance with it.

Had some fun with it on the light assault the other day and it is a fantastic gun. Oddly all my kills so far are at medium range. Still need to practice getting in close after playing HA for so long, and probably buy the second tier of laser sight.

1007
General Discussion / Re: Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« on: April 11, 2013, 09:36:52 am »
Quote from: LordBucket on April 11, 2013, 09:28:52 am
This thread was seriously started because a woman was complaining about how women are portrayed in games. As if that was an important thing.
For the gaming industry and gaming culture? Yes it is.

Is it OK if I use your post as a textbook example of derailing tactics? It's kinda beautiful.

1008
General Discussion / Re: Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« on: April 11, 2013, 09:17:51 am »
Quote from: kahn1234 on April 11, 2013, 08:37:36 am
What if the person who supposedly raped her was equally inebriated and wasn't in any state to make judgements either?

That's where the 'reasonable belief' comes into play. They may believe that the other person consented, but if their belief was not reasonable (eg, due to inebriation) then it isn't a valid defence.

Personally I lean towards an enthusiastic consent model for sexual behaviour, where you treat anything but a clear green light as a red, as a model for more, better sex without risks. But that's just me and not the law.
Quote from: kahn1234 on April 11, 2013, 08:37:36 am
I saw 8 out of about 3 dozen there having salary ranges. Also, salaries on the ones i saw were based of off qualifications, past experience etc.
You might want to re-count there. It's 12 of 20 on the first page, not counting the £6.40-90 one, and 19 on the second which are listed either as an explicit range, 'competitive' or unspecified. Usually a non-fixed salary will involved the candidate being invited to suggest their starting salary. It's a fairly common practice. This immediately puts women in the position of having to negotiate a raise.

When women do negotiate their opening salaries they are more likely to be hurt than benefit. From the discussion;
Quote
The results of Experiment 2 supported our hypothesis that women would incur a greater social cost from attempting to negotiate for higher compensation than would men (Hypothesis 1). Indeed, there was no significant decline in the evaluators’ willingness to work with a male candidate who attempted to negotiate (vs. not). Women, in contrast, faced a large penalty—the negative effect of the ask manipulation was more than 5.5 times greater for women than for men. Interestingly, whether the candidate asked simply (moderate ask) or assertively (strong ask) had no effect on the relatively larger social cost for women as compared to men.
Which is to say, it didn't matter if they were polite or pushy. Women who asked for higher salaries were judged more harshly and less likely to be hired than men who did the same thing.

I'm not claiming this is a concious bias, but it is a real and sexist one.

This extends further. There is this semi-famous paper that used identical CVs with a male or female name when applying to academic jobs. The male names had a substantially higher likelyhood of being hired than the female ones.


And LordBucket, you have a very odd view of gender relations and what makes a successful or happy life.

1009
General Discussion / Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« on: April 11, 2013, 08:32:00 am »
Quote from: kahn1234 on April 11, 2013, 08:08:20 am
That quote is rather disturbing. However, with date rape, especially if the woman was severely drunk, the testimonial of the woman has to be treated with a pinch of salt, surely, as she for various reasons might not remember what happened. how does she know she didnt consent?
In that case yes, her testimony should be treated with a pinch of salt. But in that state it would be technically impossible for her to consent. Consent requires the "freedom and capacity to make that choice", which means someone too drunk or under any coercive pressures can't grant consent. Here there is an onus on the partner to recognise that the person is unable to give consent (where the 'reasonable belief' part comes in).
Quote from: Max White on April 11, 2013, 08:08:58 am
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Quote from: LordBucket on April 11, 2013, 08:09:26 am
Do you really have it so terrible?
Well, seeing as I'm a 26 year old white, currently unemployed guy living in England, no I don't. But I do see women being shit upon constantly, usually by people advancing the sorts of arguments you just made as justification.

And I find it kinda telling that whenever I make a counter to a particular argument (in this case, why the pay gap exists) I get a completely unrelated argument in return.
Quote from: kahn1234 on April 11, 2013, 08:21:58 am
I have applied for many (i was 18, just finished sixth form collage and an IT apprenticeship and needed a job. I applied for several dozen jobs and trawled all the largest job sites. that was 2 years ago.) and, whilst i cannot speak for the US, on all the job sites here in Britain they say a fixed salary, regardless of gender. The only reason, in Britain, a man will be paid more is if he has actively chased a pay rise or got promoted.
I have a job site open right now. Here is a search for all jobs in Cambridge, UK today. I make 12 on the first page with salary ranges or unspecified salaries. On the second page it's all but one.

1010
General Discussion / Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« on: April 11, 2013, 08:01:38 am »
I'm sorry, I do kinda have to respond to this. I'm going to put it in spoilers because it's entirely besides the point of the thread, but it's pissed me off;
Spoiler: Discussion of rape (click to show/hide)

1011
General Discussion / Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« on: April 11, 2013, 07:46:37 am »
Quote from: kahn1234 on April 11, 2013, 07:14:09 am
They may not have been able to vote (the same as most men) but they were important, and, in Britain anyway, they received the vote at the same time as the common man (the 1860's. proven by the fact there were females on the voting register at the time).
Quote from: kahn1234 on April 11, 2013, 07:36:47 am
One Woman? there were at least two dozen women on the register who voted in the local elections in one area. i cant find the article that displays them at the moment, but it was reported on.
OK, so you admit that you were wrong when you claimed that, "in Britain anyway, they received the vote at the same time as the common man"?

Because making the argument that women have always been equal to men and then getting basic facts about suffrage wrong isn't really helping your case. The fact that the feminist movement was successful in getting women the vote in some local areas (and note that by 1867 John Stewart Mill was pushing for the full female vote in Parliament and losing the vote, so it's not like it wasn't on the radar) isn't really helping your case either.

1012
General Discussion / Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« on: April 11, 2013, 07:38:52 am »
Quote from: kahn1234 on April 11, 2013, 07:36:47 am
not according to the voting registers.

perhaps do some research first. It was reported on in the news at the time, albeit not much (doesnt go along with the current agenda/consensus).
Yes, Lily Maxwell. She slipped through an accidental loophole and her vote was disallowed.

1013
General Discussion / Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« on: April 11, 2013, 07:27:51 am »
Quote from: kahn1234 on April 11, 2013, 07:14:09 am
They may not have been able to vote (the same as most men) but they were important, and, in Britain anyway, they received the vote at the same time as the common man (the 1860's. proven by the fact there were females on the voting register at the time).
Yeah, I'm having trouble accepting that you believe half of what you are writing, so I'm just sticking to the obvious factual errors.

There was one woman who was wrongly on the electoral register in 1867. She voted and that vote was the basis of a court case that found women's suffrage was illegal. Specifically the Great Reform Act of 1832 included the word "male" in the property requirements to vote, excluding women deliberately. I'd note that the British feminist movement was extremely active and fairly successful by this point, so it's not like even the minimal steps they had made were independent of feminist pushes for equality.

It was 1918 that women gained the vote in Britain, and then only over the age of 30. It wasn't till 1928 that women gained parity with men on voting rights.
Quote from: kahn1234 on April 11, 2013, 07:14:09 am
They are payed the same, at least at the start. I will pay anyone 1000 great british pounds if they can find a job advertisement that has one wage for a female and another for a male. The difference in pay is due to the proven fact that men chase pay rises more aggressively than women, and thus receive them more often.
How many jobs have you applied for? Most advertise pay ranges rather than a fixed salary. It turns out that women end up at the bottom of the range more often than men.

And yes, there are aggression gaps, usually down to socialisation. Women are encouraged to be less assertive and aggressive in general, and when they do push they tend to be judged harshly for it. A woman pushing to be at the top of the pay range is less likely to get the job than a man making the same push, all other things being equal.

1014
General Discussion / Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« on: April 11, 2013, 06:53:01 am »
Quote from: Max White on April 11, 2013, 06:14:47 am
A mens rights speech gets protested by feminists. Just for being a mens rights speech.
For being a group that had, in their previous event, invited along a man who suggested that continuing after a woman said no to sex was 'exciting' rather than rape.

Who had, after people protested that first event, posted photos and solicited names and contact details of the women who had been protesting. These lead to women who protested being targeted for public and private harassment.

Yes, people were pissed that they were still active. Because they regard that kind of thing as beyond the pale. It's not uncommon for people to protest the very fact that someone was invited to speak or the existence of a reprehensible group rather than the content, and often those protests slip over the line into silencing.

An older example; when Oxford Union invited Nick Griffin (leader of the BNP) and David Irving (famous holocaust denier) to take part in a debate, there were incredibly disruptive protests. Their goal wasn't to show opposition to Griffin and Irving, but to try to shut down the event entirely. The event itself was a greater offence - and had a greater impact - than any of the words that might have been said from the podium.

I generally don't agree with shutting down any group or debate, but do accept that groups who offer people platforms for their views should be judged by those views. If those views are not compatible with a safe environment for others then they should be rejected from that environment. I'd like to imagine that universities should be such safe environments.

1015
General Discussion / Re: SCIENCE, the Higgs, and everything else!
« on: April 10, 2013, 11:49:19 am »
Quote from: MaximumZero on April 10, 2013, 11:37:26 am
I honestly thought that article was a late April Fool's day joke. Holy headfuck.
I'd seen similar proposals in the past along the lines of a smaller scale Project Orion, using ICF pellets in the place of nuclear bombs. This is the first detonation method that looks plausibly interesting. I'd love to see a more technical exploration of it.

1016
General Discussion / Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« on: April 10, 2013, 11:47:17 am »
Quote from: Neonivek on April 10, 2013, 11:13:36 am
There were some who believed that a trope could be sexist and others who believed that a trope could not be sexist and only through overuse could it be.
This still makes no sense to me.

The nature of a trope includes the trends in its use. Individual usages are examples of that trope, but the trope itself is the broader trend. How common a trope is, how it has been subverted or reinforced, what media it is found in and how and why... these are all central to what that trope is. It doesn't make sense to talk about use of a trope without looking at those factors.

If there is a trend (trope) of using a plot device or character type that is sexist, that is a sexist trope.

Individual examples of it may not be intended to be sexist or overly horrible taken in isolation, but they may still contribute to an overall sexist trend that is problematic.

1017
General Discussion / Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« on: April 10, 2013, 11:11:16 am »
Quote from: Reelya on April 10, 2013, 11:07:37 am
It's kinda meaningless to compare action games to a genre like TV sitcoms. Try comparing them to action films and it's not as different as you make out.
Just to try to be clear...

I wasn't even implying you can compare games to sitcoms. I was trying to deflate the idea that you can justify sexism in games by pointing at sitcoms and romcoms.

Quote from: Neonivek on April 10, 2013, 10:52:49 am
Well of course when you define what roles are "Sexist" it is quite easy.

Well maybe we could try having an extended discussion about the nature of sexism and sexist tropes rather than repeated derails about how men have it tough in the world of romantic comedies?

I'd say the lines are fairly clear, but I'm happy to have the discussion if other people are actually interested.

1018
Other Games / Re: Planetside 2: Free-to-Play MMOFPS. 2000 players/server.
« on: April 10, 2013, 10:50:38 am »
Quote from: miauw62 on April 10, 2013, 10:28:11 am
One of the reasons I haven't certed my med applicator beyond a certain point :P
I hate you.

Nah, I grabbed max rank as soon as I had the certs spare. It gives you great extra range and lets you revive and run. Makes it far easier to keep a push going longer, keep your meatshields present, keep behind cover while reviving, etc. I might lose 20xp or so from topping off each revive, but frankly that is irrelevant compared to how much longer you keep earning XP.

And even if that's all irrelevant, I revive faster than low ranked medics, so in a scramble for revive certs I'm going to win out more often. During the 2x weekend I was beating one guy out so often he TKed me. If that's not a worthwhile goal I don't know what is.

Not to mention it's a horrible idea to accept a revive from a low level medigun in an ongoing firefight. If I recognise the name of someone who revived me with less than half health I'm more likely to decline and wait for someone else to come along, unless I'm sure we are in a very secure location and they are definitely going to top me off.

1019
General Discussion / Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« on: April 10, 2013, 10:44:17 am »
Quote from: Neonivek on April 10, 2013, 10:27:29 am
What are you talking about? There are a LOT of "Strong male and female characters" as well as a lot of non-sexualised and unsexist uses of women in videogames as well.

The issue is that we arn't at the levels we would like... The same with Sitcoms.
The whole issue here is the vast majority of female characters either fall into sexist tropes or are sexualised. It's the predominant trend for women in video games.

There are examples where they aren't, but start exploring the tropes and trends and it's pretty hard to feel good that a handful of games a year feature strong female characters, let alone protagonists. For many women wanting relatable or admirable or escapist female characters that's an issue. Which is behind the project behind this entire thread.

It's pretty much the opposite situation in sitcoms. While there are lots of examples of problematic characters there are no predominant trends that cut across the whole genre.

Not to mention that sitcoms aren't surrounded by a community and culture that further cements sexist attitudes and pushes away people who take issue with the problematic parts.

1020
General Discussion / Re: Only two posts on 'Tropes vs Women in Video Games'
« on: April 10, 2013, 10:24:24 am »
Quote from: DJ on April 10, 2013, 10:04:38 am
And really, men are stupid isn't a common trope?
Dominant. Dominant stereotype.

You can't really speak of dominant stereotypes in a genre (sitcoms) that has such diversity of shows. Looking through this list of the top 50 British sitcoms (most of which I've seen at some point) you roughly the same range of characters you would expect to find in all media. Hell, I'd say there is stronger class stereotyping than gender in that selection, and even then it's pretty weak.

The problem, yet again, is that videogames predominantly feature women in sexualised or sexist ways. While you can find major sitcoms (and yes, major romcoms) that have both strong male and female characters it's harder to find that in games.

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