Bay 12 Games Forum

Hm. I'm not sure if doing a revision would be worth it rather than designing a completely new bomber. Unless you're happy with pushing bombs out of the back you'll have to cut in bomb bay doors into the floor, which is a pretty major revision of the airframe. Along with the release mechanisms, bomb sighting, and of course the defensive weapons we'll want to put on a bomber, it may be too major for a revision.

I originally advocated for a flying boat, but upon consideration we'll obviously already control a territory and the airbases if we're using it in the cargo role, so may as well not take the performance hit for a hydrodynamic fuselage. Hence the Albatross as it stands, and its size is about that of the C-46 Commando. Cargo capacity should probably be a bit higher as the Albatross is four-engined with higher airspeed and thus lift.

And could someone add me into the Forenia channel for the Discord?

If you're going to bring up the Musashi as well I will point out that the both of them were super-heavy battleships, unique and impractical for their time and the IJN would have been better served by three fleet carriers for that price. A more relevant example would be the sinking of HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse, modern battleships and battlecruisers sunk solely by air power, by single-digit numbers of hits.

(circles are easy because motors make circles...).

wat

As for the rest of your argument, I'm not sure how to continue putting it across to you except that range does matter a whole lot more than you give it credit for. Your battleship can't deter anything if it's on fire and sinking, which aircraft can accomplish from way outside the range of any naval guns. HMS Glorious was the only aircraft carrier that battleships were able to get in range of and sink, and that was due more to sheer incompetence on their part than the enemy's skill, while the list of battleships sunk by aircraft is so numerous that I'm not going to bother listing it here.

The only area I'll concede that battleships are better than carriers is in shore bombardment, but carrier-launched bombers can still perform that role to some degree.

The Yamato was sunk by a fleet of carriers, a very large fleet of carriers, and had a tiny fleet with it. That is more an example of uneven forces than mismatched forces. Carriers are not invulnerable, even when fighting from outside of enemy range, they require aircraft to do so, aircraft can be damaged or destroyed. A depleted carrier may be cheaper to restore than a damaged-or-destroyed battleship, but it is a cost none-the-less and the ship is still out-of-action... Add to that the higher running costs(I am assuming here) and battleships start to look more favourable, provided that they do not sink.

It seems to me that there is still a role for a battleship, just not one of dominance. A ship with, say, 4 three-hundred-and-sixty millimetre guns, spread over two turrets, could still discourage smaller ships from approaching even though it would not be suited to defeating a battleship in a duel, while hosting far more antiaircraft fire(or facilities to increase its agility...), including shrapnel rounds from its main guns that could outrange anything the aircraft could do, although would likely do little more than disrupt formations and flight-paths... Meanwhile it could wear the same armour that takes dozens of direct hits from aircraft to overcome while mounted on the least-desirable location for aircraft to approach. a particularly ambitious designer might even try to add some sort of docking facilities for extremely light craft that could sortie with sonar against submarines while this 'escort battleship' provides resupply and poor-weather protection that would normally render such light vessels impractical in open seas...

Note also that our carriers are light, only, what, 20 aircraft? I would not expect them to defeat an unescorted battleship one-on-one, and the sort of fleets that were being hurled around the pacific could probably withstand a dozen of them with negligible losses. Which exposes another flaw of the carrier. If a carrier is overwhelmed, it is pretty much useless. While the sip itself is almost defenceless, its aircraft are prone to being overwhelmed too. If five fighters and five torpedo-planes encounter 10 fighters, then they are very unlikely to so much as scratch an enemy ship. The great carrier victories tend to rely upon enough forces to effectively keep their opponent busy, at least temporarily. If the enemy can field twice as many fighters in defence as you can when attacking, than you are basically irrelevant, while a battleship can still pose a threat and force a response if it advances on something sensitive.

Carriers are definitely good, no mistake, but it seems foolish to ignore a combined-arms approach, and a battleship carriers a lot of stopping-power and hard-point that carriers are largely bereft of.

I'm not sure whether you're referring to in-game or historical in this post, but I'll address both.

Historically, you'll have to provide evidence that carriers were more expensive than battleships in WWII. The fundamental reason for "carriers-obsoleted-battleships" is that aircraft have far longer range than any naval gun, and battles were conducted at this range, the first of which was Coral Sea. Your escort battleship would do better removing its big guns and being converted into an escort carrier, which can outrange any non-carrier and thus do a better job deterring other ships, or removing its big guns and converting into an anti-air cruiser, to be more cost-effective at anti-air defence. Shrapnel shells aren't anywhere near as effective as actual AA guns in this time period either. And I'm not sure what armour can withstand 'dozens of direct hits from aircraft', given that the ultra-heavy (and ultra-expensive) battleship, Yamato, was sunk by less than a dozen torpedoes and half-dozen bombs. For the anti-submarine role, destroyers are far more cost-effective: if I have even two destroyers for a battleship I'm already covering more search area with sonar. Overall, the escort role is better filled by cheap destroyers or submarines, which only need to see the enemy coming at sufficient distance from the main force and warning the carriers to deploy a counterstrike.

I'll grant you that an overwhelmed battleship can still do better than an overwhelmed carrier, but only on the defence (see how quickly Soryu, Akagi and Kaga were crippled). On the attack however, a battleship attacking any enemy concentration with aircraft (either carrier or land-based) will be hammered without being able to fire back at the source, perhaps for hours, perhaps fatally. In this situation, a battleship would do no better than an outclassed aircraft carrier.

In-game, and meta-game, I am strongly strongly against any attempt to go down the big guns route to try and match the Cannalan navy. They have quite a significant lead over us in this aspect, and should they see us trying to do so, will devote designs to maintaining said lead and rendering our efforts useless. And as has already been pointed out, we have lucked out as our carriers are merely Expensive, and will become Cheap when we absorb Myark.

Anyway, transport-wise I would prefer flying boats, which aren't quite so vulnerable to Cannalan naval dominance as surface ships or submarines, although they still won't be able to hold as much cargo.

"aircraft carriers obsoleted battleships" myth.

Out of curiosity, why do you think that this is a myth?

Aircraft carriers are better for Forenia as we have a general that improves our air ability, so projecting that air advantage into the ocean is a reasonable step to take, especially as said air bonus will remain for the entire game.

As for jet engines, I don't currently see the need for them as we have air superiority for now. And I believe the other example that you quoted of radar would be better for us in cementing that air superiority.

Push the Isle of Myark: (9) evictedSaint, Madman198237, Powder Miner, Baffler, Zanzetkuken, GUNINANRUNIN, Lightforger, Stabby, Azzuro
Push the Top Lane:       (9) evictedSaint, Madman198237, Powder Miner, Baffler, Zanzetkuken, GUNINANRUNIN, Lightforger, Stabby, Azzuro

Jumping aboard the bandwagon.

Also, why does the SB forums all go to sleep at a specific time? Are they all concentrated in one specific area of the globe?

'Wasp Nest': (9) GUNINANRUNIN, Khan Boyzitbig,evictedSaint, Madman198237, Helmacon, Andrea, Kashyyk, Happerry, Azzuro
'Cavalier': (3) Baffler, Powder Miner, Taricus
'B3 Demolisher': (0)
'Hornet Nest': (0)

Voting for Carriers. Sorry Zanzutkuken but I think the Hornet's Nest design has too little AA.

Edit: Hey, I thought of a way to help quell the riots.  Anyone good at writing a speech for the Prime Minister (or whatever we have) that they can give that would lambast the Canallans and call for all Forenians to unite to destroy this foe?

Portion of a speech by the Prime Minister of United Forenia, 14th January 1938

My fellow Forenians, this day the war against Cannala has begun. As I speak, Cannalan planes are flying across the Zhuyev Archipelago, Cannalan troops are marching out of the Kader Jungle, and Cannalan cruisers are steaming for Emilovich Island. Between us lies two thousand kilometres of ocean and isle, and before us stands the full arsenal of the continent island-nation of Cannala, turned to the task of transcontinental conquest. Already, the dishonourable Cannalans have struck an underhanded blow against our fair Forenia!

I will not lie to you, this war will not be won by winter. It will not be won this time next year, and it will not be won the year after. It will be won when our planes bomb their capital, when our ships shell their capitol, and when our soldiers storm their streets and decapitate every last Cannalan! That is the victory we must be resolved to achieve, the day Cowardly Cannala attacked us by surprise!

These coming weeks, these coming months, these coming years all promise a revolution in the conduct of war. The Cannalan battleships which shelled our capital have gone down in history for conducting the world's longest transoceanic raid; now it falls to us to win, and write the rest of that history. The rest of the world waits with bated breath to witness how land, air and sea power may converge to victory across the wide expanse of ocean, and it is upon us to show them. In this, the tireless efforts of our researchers, engineers and designers is paramount, and I have every confidence that their innovation, intelligence and ingenuity will give United Forenia the weapons she needs to triumph.

But our greatest advantage over Cannala is not one that was invented. It is not a vehicle driven, which may be disabled, nor a weapon wielded, which may be wrestled away, nor a bullet fired, which may be armoured against. It is a power that Cannala cannot comprehend. It is a strength that every last man and woman with a Forenian flag upon their breast may draw on, and one that no one save ourselves may relinquish. It is one that is in the very name of our glorious nation. It is unity!

Today, our children learn to sing the anthem of United Forenia, of which Moskurg and Arstotzka are two parts that form a greater whole. I do not ask that these two storied identities be forgotten to history - only that Forenia must come first if we are to prevail. Already our continental union has borne fruit - the plains, mountains and jungles of our bountiful continent are settled and cultivated in peace, unhindered by battles and borders for the first time in centuries, ushering in a new age of prosperity and plenty. We draw our strength from the unity of north and south, rather than waste it in fruitless battle against our brothers. No such mindset exists in Cannala - even the name of their worthless nation speaks of the dominance of one over the other! Where else exists the Juraki Shogunate, but in the minds of an underclass of Cannalans forced to toil on the sugar plantations and in the rum factories? Will they take up arms against our righteous soldiers when we land on the Cannalan beaches? Or will they take up arms against the pirates who conquered them by force, and fight alongside a similarly aggrieved people for their freedom? The Cannalans showed no mercy to the Juraki, and neither will they be accepting of Arstotzkan or Moskurgite - only Forenia united can prevail against their dreams of intercontinental conquest and assimilation!

I do not pretend that the detritus of our violent history will be washed away solely by the tears of the war widows, weeping for the victims of the New Year's Eve attack. I only hope that the sweat of Forenian soldiers slogging through the Kader Jungle and the blood of Forenian sailors split in the waters of the Zhuyev islands will be enough to write a new page in our history - the name of United Forenia!

United by fire, united by strife, United Forenia shall survive!

*cue epic rendition of United Forenia's national anthem*

---

Why is Cannala named Cannala, and not Turbados or Turbobarbarians or whatever? Anyway, forgive any tense mix-ups, it's getting late on my side. I was going for a Churchillian feel to this, but I'm out of practice.

EDIT: Ninja'd! You can try adding ours together somehow.

Edited, original version is quoted by Zanzetkuken below if you want to see it.

Quote from: Azzuro on May 03, 2017, 06:48:55 am

-especially as we don't have screening ships or floatplanes to warn of enemy forces in the vicinity.

A carrier has fighters that it can use as a scouting force. A CV would have been pretty capable on it's own, especially with the ability to intercept enemy communications. Now we've got a good destroyer, but it's undergunned and will get torn to shreds by the bigger and harder hitting enemy ships out there. A destroyer is pointless without another ship to escort. A CV would have been just as vulnerable while contributing more to the fight.

This is incorrect. Carriers of this period did not use their fighters for scouting, as their range, endurance and flight characteristics were nowhere near suited to the naval reconnaissance role, not to mention that doing so would severely comprise its CAP cover in case of attack. In fact, the main bulk of airborne naval reconnaissance was done by Kot's beloved floatplanes and flying boats, which were not quite so fatally bound to their fuel endurance.

And screening ships are much better than planes in serving as early warning. For one, they don't consume fuel merely to stay in the air, thus the carrier's air wing need not run their supplies low, enhancing their effectiveness and mission capability. They can also continue providing cover at night, while carrier operations of this period are limited to daylight.

Don't get me wrong, I too want carriers. In fact, I want carriers so much that I'd like to get some naval design experience in, so we can get better results on our designs, instead of jumping straight to carriers when our only other ship is a cargo ship with a field artillery gun on it.