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Messages - Mantonio

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76
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Missing Metals
« on: February 18, 2011, 07:45:16 pm »
Quote from: Psieye on February 18, 2011, 06:43:07 pm
Quote from: Mantonio on February 18, 2011, 06:30:07 pm
Quote from: Psieye on February 18, 2011, 06:27:47 pm
I read a post saying any mineral can count as a 'metal'. This means cinnabar, cobaltite and even gems are possible results from the "so what metal is this?" dice roll.

Seriously? Okay, THAT is complete BS. I can accept having rarer metals so you have to rely on trade more, but finding yourself on essentially useless ground because you've been assigned things that are worth no more than basic stone? That's ridiculous!
It's a rough and incomplete release. As Toady did say, he's well aware of these issues and he has numerous possible solutions both short-term and mid-term. I have the odd feeling that when the full economy of the Caravan Arc is completed, anything might be possible with price fluctuations. I would not be surprised if one year in one world, cobaltite was more expensive than hematite whereas in another world, microcline is the hot stuff that royalty are paying riches to get access to. Such stories would be rare yes, but this all goes to say: let's hope Toady gives us those worldgen options soon and then see what he does with the main meat of the Caravan Arc.

I understand that it is rough and incomplete, but it's still ridiculous. Stone is never as valuable or highly needed as metal, more so since metal is now rare! So having stones included in the rolls of the dice that determines what metal you get is just pushing too far. It means that the new site finder isn't useful, since those metals it points out have a high chance to be something totally useless like cobaltite.

77
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Missing Metals
« on: February 18, 2011, 06:30:07 pm »
Quote from: Psieye on February 18, 2011, 06:27:47 pm
I read a post saying any mineral can count as a 'metal'. This means cinnabar, cobaltite and even gems are possible results from the "so what metal is this?" dice roll.

Seriously? Okay, THAT is complete BS. I can accept having rarer metals so you have to rely on trade more, but finding yourself on essentially useless ground because you've been assigned things that are worth no more than basic stone? That's ridiculous!

78
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Missing Metals
« on: February 18, 2011, 06:22:31 pm »
Quote from: Nikov on February 18, 2011, 06:20:29 pm
Cobaltite.

FFFFFFFFfffffffffff...

Wait, does that count as one of the metals!?

79
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Missing Metals
« on: February 18, 2011, 06:14:07 pm »
Does the fact that gems are now more prevalent in volcanic sites mean you can use that as an indicator of magma tubes? I've got deep metals, but so far have found nothing buy gems. And I'm not on a volcano. Does this mean a possible magma tube?

80
DF Gameplay Questions / How deep are deep metals?
« on: February 18, 2011, 03:55:20 pm »
My current fort has multiple deep metals (no shallow, because there are no such sites on my pocket region, I hate you worldgen) and I'm digging for them as we speak. However, how deep should I have to go before I find said deep metals?? I'd like to have an inkling of what level disappointment and bismuth can be found.

81
DF Gameplay Questions / Re: Yay I caught a Giant Cave Spider! But...
« on: February 18, 2011, 03:03:11 pm »
Yes, it would. They shoot webbing to ensnare their pray.

Hence the silk farm I linked, that abuses this mechanic to get you lots of free silk.

82
DF Gameplay Questions / Re: Less metals = good, memorable Fun
« on: February 18, 2011, 02:57:17 pm »
Quote from: Dutchling on February 18, 2011, 02:49:19 pm
In my first fort in .19 I embarked on what seemed to 3+ z levels of magnetite. Now I've deleted the save (genesis was updated) and I haven't found  any metals yet, that's without exploratory mining ofc, cause that would ruin my fort :P

Lucky! I'm got a fort with multiple deep metals, and I haven't found anything yet. I have no idea how deep is deep.

If this keeps up (or even worse, if world gen screwed me over and gave me useless metals) I'll have to use wooden crossbows.

83
DF Gameplay Questions / Re: Yay I caught a Giant Cave Spider! But...
« on: February 18, 2011, 02:48:49 pm »
Yeah, tame it. Tamed creatures won't hurt your dwarfs, as long as you they haven't killed one of them already. Once they have the taste of blood, they can be tamed but will still attack your dwarfs. You might need to alter your raws though, since you need a Dungeon Master and they're bugged at the moment.

In your df folder, go to raw > objects > creature_subterranean. Search for the [CREATURE:SPIDER_CAVE_GIANT] entry and change the [PET_EXOTIC] tag to just [PET]. Then you'll be able to tame them with anyone. And they'll breed as well! Since the Dungeon Master is bugged, tamed animals that you bought from Elfs or Humans that have the [PET_EXOTIC] tag don't breed.

If you want to harvest its silk, I suggest that you build a silk farm as shown here

http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Giant_cave_spider

Giant cave spider silk is worth a lot more than the regular kind. Should be profitable!

84
DF Gameplay Questions / Re: Less metals = good, memorable Fun
« on: February 18, 2011, 02:46:57 pm »
At the end of the day, scarcer metals can work. However, it really needs the rest of the caravan arc, because at the moment you're extremely limited where you go in terms of metal (especially since you only get one caravan with a few measly bars every year) and most civs are stuck in a stone age with no access to copper or iron.

If metal scarcity is the difficult but rewarding magma, then the caravan arc is the floodgates and piping. While you can just about do it with the former, but you really should build the latter first, otherwise everyone just gets burned.

85
DF Gameplay Questions / Re: How do you make the initial team ?
« on: February 18, 2011, 10:15:08 am »
Quote from: KVC627 on February 18, 2011, 10:10:37 am
Just leave the anvil - thats 100 points and the first caravan usually brings a few.

But what if your civilisation is dead? You'll have to rely on Humans (if they even appear!) and during that time you're vulnerable to Goblin attacks.

86
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Missing Metals
« on: February 18, 2011, 08:29:27 am »
Quote from: SmileyMan on February 18, 2011, 07:40:26 am
Quote from: Mantonio on February 17, 2011, 05:59:30 pm
This is the first time in a LONG time you have been so restricted on where you can go. It used to be that you could embark anywhere (pure mountains and pure oceans notwithstanding) and it would be possible to survive and thrive, albeit with some places being far more difficult than others. Now, the scarcity of metal means that some places are IMPOSSIBLE for you to survive or thrive, unless you literally wall yourselves in.
Not impossible, you just need to be creative.  The incredible forts were once just a matter of time and effort.  Now they are a matter of time, effort, ingenuity and dwarfawesomeness.

This is not a bad thing.

time, effort, ingenuity,dwarfawesomeness, not being screwed over by world gen making your civ without access to iron, steel or copper, not being screwed over by 99% of previously 'good' sites turning up metal-barren in world gen, and having to wait for the current caravan to bring 3 measly metal bars every year.

Look, I'm sure it will be better once the rest of the caravan arc is implemented, and caravans are bigger and the world isn't stuck in a permanent stone age. But the metal scarcity as it is now is just not good in any way. It will only be good once the trading infrastructure to support it exists, until then we are objectively worse off.

The magma has been breached before the piping and floodgates have been installed, if you will.

87
DF Gameplay Questions / Re: Less metals = good, memorable Fun
« on: February 18, 2011, 06:32:11 am »
I don't like it. I use pocket regions (because I like them) but you're screwed over in terms of sites if you do. In my opinion, making minerals suddenly super rare without having the necessary trading framework to support it is a massive mistake. Because without it you're embarking without copper tools (so you have to fork over 3 times as many dwarfbucks for some picks and an axe) and sometimes your civ doesn't even have iron or steel, so no anvils! And even IF you now find a site that has metal (a rare find, compared to last version!) why are you not allowed to know what type of soil or stone or metal to expect? What, so my civilisation knows that there's deep metal there, but they can't tell me that the topsoil is loam and the cliffs are microcline, or what that deep metal they've found is? Seriously!? And what if I want to make a fort out of microcline? I have to constantly savescum to get a nice site, because for some completely arbitrary reason I'm not allowed to know what the bloody top stone layer is!

How deep am I supposed to dig anyway? Apparently my map has deep metals plural, but how many levels should I be expected to dig before I find any?

88
DF Dwarf Mode Discussion / Re: Is clay a type of wood?
« on: February 17, 2011, 07:53:39 pm »
Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on February 17, 2011, 06:19:24 pm
Is clay a type of wood?

What? No. That's really weird.

Presumably, since your world was messed up and soil types could be used to make swords, a sand sword must have been possible as well. Or a loam one, or a silt one.

89
DF General Discussion / Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« on: February 17, 2011, 07:32:20 pm »
Quote from: G-Flex on February 17, 2011, 07:29:32 pm
Quote from: Mantonio on February 17, 2011, 07:27:23 pm
But the fact that you don't have an inkling of what kind of stone you're facing does hinder you. You said it yourself that it's silly that we don't even know the top layer of stone or soil. Plus - and my biggest gripe with it is here - it means you have to savescum over and over if you want a fort made of the stone you want. Not letting us know what type of stone or soil to expect adds nothing to the game, but detracts something.

To clarify, I feel that the player should be told some information, just not all information, and that the detailed layer summary we had before isn't really as important or necessary. It would still be nice to see things like "there's sedimentary stone on top, and some nice coal deposits and sand".

I agree, but I think it was important, if only for aesthetic choices. I feel we should be told what kind of rock is on top, if only so we can make those aforementioned aesthetic choices. It makes sense that the top layer of rock at least would be identified.

90
DF General Discussion / Re: Future of the Fortress: The Development Page
« on: February 17, 2011, 07:27:23 pm »
Well, I've been put in my place. However, I will say this.
Quote from: G-Flex on February 17, 2011, 06:26:09 pm
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's understandable that you won't know every single layer of the Earth's crust, and it matters less now that the game seems to be focused more on localized mineral deposits and less on what types of layers you have. It matters more that the game tells you that you have metal than, say, granite, because layers are no longer such a guaranteed predictor of mineral wealth like they were before.

But the fact that you don't have an inkling of what kind of stone you're facing does hinder you. You said it yourself that it's silly that we don't even know the top layer of stone or soil. Plus - and my biggest gripe with it is here - it means you have to savescum over and over if you want a fort made of the stone you want. Not letting us know what type of stone or soil to expect adds nothing to the game, but detracts something.

Quote from: Jiri Petru on February 17, 2011, 07:14:38 pm
(not to the post above, but those above above):

Yeah... because having valuable minerals everywhere is how things should work in a simulation of "real" geography  ::)

But what we've been given here is nothing like real geography. What we have now is like if in the whole of Europe, only France had any minerals in it. And you couldn't get any different metals from anywhere else in the world. That's what this is like.

All in all, I just think the ball has been dropped here. Like it's been said before, this reduced metal feature has been implemented before the trading framework needed to support it was implemented. Which means were worse off than before overall.

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