Bay 12 Games Forum

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on July 05, 2013, 08:22:01 pm

Quote from: IronyOwl on July 05, 2013, 07:54:20 pm

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on July 05, 2013, 04:28:49 pm

((It's not just earthworms. There's other kinds of worms, too, you know...))

((I don't see how this addresses the point. If you've got "worms" filling the "eat dead stuff and make things plants can eat better" role, what does the size of the real-world Annelida or Nematoda have to do with anything whatsoever?))

((Earthworms don't do everything, you know.))

((...and your point is? I see no point here whatsoever.

Draw me a picture, because I am not getting the connection between "Earthworms aren't the only type of worms that exist" and "To create an ecosystem that won't fall apart in this game requires more than one creature in the decomposer slot."))

((There's more than one step in decomposition. That's my point. Most organisms, worms included, only do one step. Is that clear enough for you?))

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((I didn't bring up bacteria, someone asked about it. I mentioned that there were none.

((You still stated that there weren't any. Silly me thinking that "No bacteria" means "No bacteria," huh?))

I brought up the failing ecosystems because you have nothing whatsoever. I never said there weren't enough worms that specialize in breaking down exoskeletons. I never said these bushes only have four types of pollinators. I never even said there was nothing eating these things and thus their population was getting out of control.

I said there's nothing to eat. As in, literally nothing to eat. Thus, things can't eat, and they're therefore starving to death instead.

((Then...why did you bother mentioning the lack of bacteria?))

There are no moving goalposts, at least not on my end. There's certainly no switching of which side of the goalposts I'm on. There's me telling you how the game works, and there's you bitching and moaning because it's not 100% realistic, by which I mean handwaved in the manner of your choosing.))

((I think that the issue is a communication issue. To me, it seems like you were basically saying that we had to create every single species of organism you want to exist.))

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on July 05, 2013, 08:22:01 pm

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((So...what makes you think that players will suddenly change?))

((...

I don't understand how you could have read this. I want you to read it again and tell me exactly what you see, because this is some Twilight Zone bullshit.

"They haven't done X!"
"Of course they haven't done X, they never had the chance. They've done Y though, which I'd say is a good precedent for X when the time comes."
"So what makes you say they'll suddenly change?"
"...?"))

((They've had the chance before. It's called "Every turn". Explain what's different this turn.

And don't just say "The famine". That will, at most, prompt them to make food of some kind.))

((If you wanna make rats, feel free. If you wanna make elves on Earth, ew.))

((To me, it seems that you are--as noted--giving us a Morton's Fork, with a third point that I suppose makes it a Hobson's Choice.
If I'm reading you correctly, we can either make "boring" animals in each niche needed for an ecosystem; make "interesting" animals in each niche needed for an ecosystem; or not make any animals for some niches, causing ecological disasters. Please explain how this is wrong.
I'm not sure why I'm saying this, since I already said basically the same thing, but maybe this time will get you to understand what I'm saying/asking.))

((I'm saying that in a game about creating things, the important parts should be either created or come about through interaction with those creations.

Case in point: The sun. I didn't think that was important, so I didn't enforce it. I don't care about the exact composition of the atmosphere or how much mass the current world(s) has either, because, again, it's not relevant. If a player starts fiddling with it, it might become relevant.

But until then, I'm not going to piddle around with the effects of vacuum or biodiversity of hair mites just for the hell of it. It's irrelevant and fiddly.))

((Okay, I have no idea what you're actually doing.

You seem to be mentioning that there won't be so much as bacteria without direct player action one page, and the next you're basically dismissing the very existence of any organism under an ounce as irrelevant.

What. Is. Going. On?))

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on July 05, 2013, 08:22:01 pm

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Imagine if this were a squad-based shooter game, and I said you couldn't just have "ammo," you had to have different types of ammo- calibers, materials, payloads, etc. You could go on to make all manner of different caliber and quality and payload rounds, or you could shrug and create one arbitrary round for rifles and one for pistols and maybe one for assault rifles or sniper rifles, and then you'd ignore it entirely.
You hopefully wouldn't insist that there's thousands of real-world ammo types and the squad can't operate without them but they're also boring and stupid and nobody cares so I should just assume you have access to a Schrodinger's catalog of vaguely defined Whatever You Need ammunition.))

((However, I would assume that the types were being abstracted out unless otherwise noted; I wouldn't assume homogenity.
You are the one who said that there were no rats, bugs, plants, bacteria, etc, until we made them. You are the one who insisted that we pay this much attention to detail. You are the one requesting that we need to create every organism that exists.

I'm the one who wants regions to come with the basic organisms.))

((You sure you read that example? That was exactly my point.

GM: "You have to create ammo types!"

OPTION 1: "Meh. I'll create 9 mm stainless steel pistol rounds, half-inch stainless steel rifle rounds, and whatever shotgun shells are made of. Done."
OPTION 2: "Ooh, I'll create 9 mm hollow point pistol rounds, and then 9 mm armor piercing pistol rounds so we're good no matter what. And then we'll want some 3/8th inch incendiary rifle rounds, and some 2-inch semi-grenade incendiary rounds for when we want to burn organics, and then we'll want armor-piercing 3/8th in rounds and do we want a bigger rifle just in case? Ooh or maybe a shrapnel round for that grenadey thingy OR WHAT ABOUT HALF INCENDIARY HALF SHRAPNEL that'll be awesome and and and..."
OPTION 3: "THIS IS BULLSHIT DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY AMMO TYPES THERE ARE IN REALITY WE CAN'T FUNCTION WITHOUT THEM BUT I DON'T WANT TO MAKE THEM WE SHOULD JUST HAVE ACCESS TO ANYTHING THAT EXISTS OR THAT WE NEED BECAUSE THIS IS STUPID."


So I ask again: Why the everloving fuck would you choose Option 3?))

((I didn't. I chose a slightly modified Option 1: "We can assume that different ammo types exist, but we're not going to bother with them." Emphasis on the assumed to exist, because that's the crux of this issue.))

((You don't need "a lot" of them. Nobody said you needed "a lot" of them. I don't know what tightassed biologist is whispering in your ear right now, but you should probably tell him to shut up.

((You do, however, need a lot of species. It's a bit irrelevant if you need a quarter million or only a thousand, because neither number will be reached.))

I'm not offering you a Morton's Fork. I'm telling you to make things when they're interesting and necessary, not handwave legions of things into existence. You're concluding that this means, what exactly? That I expect you to spend the next 4800 turns making different species of beetle? That I'm going to laugh and say "NOPE ONLY FIFTY VARIETIES OF LIFE THE WEB OF LIFE COLLAPSES LOLOLOLOLOL" the whole game?

((Not exactly, but that sounds something like what you were saying.))

How exactly do you think the game operates at this point?))

((Anything we make exists. Anything we don't explicitly make does not exist, to the detriment of what may exist. Regions do not come with any life.))

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on July 05, 2013, 08:22:01 pm

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((Remind me, how does starting with basic life change ANY of these?))

((Well, your question was what the point of granting regions traits on creation was, not why starting without any life was preferable. I already mentioned that one a lot elsewhere.

But as an addendum, I'll throw in that having all those thousands of species in each and every single region would make it very messy to try to figure out how new species would interact, or how the ecosystem as a whole would respond to other changes.))

((Why do you need to worry? Most species would react as well as the others. Or, you could look to real life for inspiration. A new species of herbivore is introduced and outcompetes the native herbivores? Hm, what did rabbits do to Australian vegetation and predators? Stuff like that.
Or...just assume it exists and leave it there.))

((Because if there's a species of rodent, it should be because a god made it for a specific reason, not because "BUT THEY EXIST IRL!"))

((Should the gods be forced to make every single species they made with a separate action? That's like saying a verse in Genesis should be devoted to each species God made on the Earth.))

((The game's not about making snowmen. It's about making landscapes. Snowmen can come into that, but it's not the sole point.

((I assumed you were making a metaphor.))]

I don't want to start with a planet and stars and sun and moons and other planets and ecosystems and forests and mountains just so somebody can jump STRAIGHT into making their elves. This isn't a game about making elves. Elves can come into it, but it's not the sole point.))

((So, this is entirely about making each little grain of sand at the beach that is your world its own unique snowflake-shape? That doesn't make the beach special, it makes it hazardous to walk on. A world that's different from Earth just 'cause is less relatable but otherwise about the same.))

((As I mentioned, I'm going to force players to create as much as I feel is relevant and interesting. I realize this may be somewhat arbitrary, which is why I'm careful to explain what does or doesn't need to happen when asked or when I feel it might come up.

This is why, for instance, you don't need to create the sun or time or gravity or legions of beetles, but you do need to create food sources or lands or worshipers. The former can be done without unless someone wants to mess with them directly. The latter raise interesting points about the specifics simply by existing.

((...You didn't notice that my complaints were on needing to create legions of beetles and the like?))

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on July 05, 2013, 08:22:01 pm

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The current world(s) isn't a freezing hellish abyss because I went ahead and took general light levels and temperature as some of those moderate qualities you can define in regions on creation- in essence, I assumed everyone wanted their place to not be a cold dark hell even though there's no sun, and decided not being a cold dark hell in the absence of a sun was an acceptable way for worlds to work.

((Why not go a step further and assume that we wanted our forests to have trees, our deserts to have beetles, our oceans to have zooplankton, our just-about-everywhere to have rodents?))

((And your beetled treed forests to have vast empires of technomagic timetraveling elves using their shackled gods to power their universe-creation engines?

((Yes, because beetles are just like technomagic timetravelling elves and totally fall into the guidelines I suggested. Because those elves would be so boring to spend time creating.))

((If you define "niche" as "something these creatures eat," then no. If you define niche as ">0.5 mm drought-resistant detrivore arthropod focusing on skin tissue," that's all you.))

((Actually, for the purpose of this discussion I'm defining "niche" as "purpose an organism plays in the environment". A bit off from the technical definition, but it captures the relevant issues.
The simple fact is, there are no general-purpose detrivores. Just like there are no organisms in Africa which eat both grass and large organisms, or no predators worldwide which eat megafauna and insects, or no seaside herbivores that eat seaweed and palm tree leaves.
Making one would make about as much sense as making a magical tree that feeds anything and everything.))

When Feyri mentioned technology, Grate brightened up.

"Ooh! Ooh! Pick me! Pick me! I'm good with technology! Pretty please?"

<...Demons. Run.>

<You made the universe, you can fix Selina.>

<More to the point, you will fix Selina. Or. Else.>

Only to a sane person.

Not sure how you didn't see that breaking her. Next post she gets creepy.

...Shortly followed by Angel getting either afraid, or furious...

SO. MANY. RAPID-FIRE. NINJA.

Note to self: Design assault ninja cannon.

<Demons Run? Try harder.>

That's actually pretty clever. Angel has a spare.

...She'd have to turn from Nuriel to put it on.

Oh well, we'll make it work.

You may want to post an action. The one suggested in the DPH thread would help you get to the bottom of the mountain, albeit probably not alive.