-snip-
I just quoted the GM for you. Here it is again:
I did give a bonus to the roll on their decision, but running after a thief while in full armour, might not be the most productive thing to do. To be honest, "Murder", or "Fire" would have gotten a slightly bigger one.[/size]
"...might not be the most productive thing to do."
Most productive.
That implies that they would have chased after the thief if they didn't have anything more important to do. Evidently, they did...
We haven't seen anything indicating a rippling wave of folk-tale-induced unrest. All signs from the GM have been that our camo was a perfect success.
What do you expect and need? Remember, all it takes is rumors.
Because I didn't want to. Use PM if you wish to discuss this.
I don't, but..."I didn't want to" is a pretty poor reason for anything if it's your only one.
I'm not exactly worried about our cred- the pigeon's flown the coop, we've already made a deal with him, and like hell we can get 30 gold in 3 days. Are we reverting to the 'don't show up to make the payment, steal it from his fence'?
That's not my plan. Again,
if we need to, do so; if we don't, don't. Let's not assume we won't be able to when there's still a chance we can.
Nah. But you do want to be more exacting with your spoilers.
Hm? Oh, whoops.
...Not entirely my fault.
As I said, a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
If that doesn't answer your question, consider this philosophical question: If it's easy, is it worth doing?
My point is, just because it's hard or time-consuming doesn't automatically mean we shouldn't do it.
And as another said, in the meantime they might kill us on-sight.
They might...which is part of why I keep pushing to gather information.
But if we're not a complete moron, we could simply not go into a situation with no escape. If we did so, we'd at least learn something about our enemies.
We're taking MMP damage every day or so-- or worse. We don't have tons of time.
[/quote]
We can't exactly just rush in. No plan will work if we try to do it without knowing about our enemies. Worse, we won't know
what plan to try.
Knowledge is power. Power is good.
You have a choice if you're dealing with demons.
You don't have a choice if you're a demon.
Dealing with a race known to typically delight in pain? Evil.
Being a member of a race known to typically delight in pain? Suspicious, but not evil in and of itself. Especially if you're only part-demon, and not willingly so. (Did we choose to be part-demon?)
I still fail to see how 'being affiliated with an evil(ish?) group' is worse than 'being part of an evil(ish) group'. As in 'murder the former, befriend the latter!'---- wouldn't that make our proposed party members demon-associators?
The biggest difference is that we'd have proven to be the exception.
Did the adventurers wait to make that distinction before murdering our boss?
We. Don't. Know.
That's the problem. We don't know much of anything.
Yes, because a sorceress adventurer who is exhausted and therefore mostly vulnerable, who probably has accumulated a number of enemies through her adventuring, can be relied on to leave herself perfectly defenseless in her room while an emergency is going on. I could see her going with her friends, or having one stay behind, but I don't think we can count on her leaving herself undefended.
It's the keep of a city-not exactly undefended; or at least that's what we want them to think. Being well-established & powerful would actually help isolate her, 'No, fuck you, I can take care of myself, go on.'.
Ah. So you think that our little dragon can defeat the defenses of a keep? And that the sorceress wouldn't be concerned about threats that could do so? It seems to me that most things that can burn a city wouldn't have much trouble with a castle--and the fact that we're one but not the other doesn't help your side any.
Implying burning a city requires the same skillset as storming a castle. I've already gone over how to start the fires & why we could get inside. The argument was that she'd feel safe inside the castle, which wouldn't be safe if the plan went through, and that being headstrong would also goad her into banishing protection if she's smart enough not to go out when she's exhausted.
1. Most things capable of burning cities are powerful. Most things which are powerful are things adventurers would be concerned with.
2. Remind me, how do you expect to break into the keep, a building which is made to keep people out, when we are just a small, weak dragon? Do we hope that the guards all run out to fight the fire, and that the sorceress decides to let her companions go and help while she stays in her room, defenseless, and does not? Then we must hope that she hasn't heard rumors of the dragonlike creature and put two and two together; that her group does not stick together as a rule; that they care enough about the city to send two of their group but not all three; and that the sorceress has no protection except other people. That's a lot of assumptions we can't make at this time.
Which is why we need more information.
As of before the second attempt to talk to the thief, could you link those people that saw us? Two children and one drunkard makes 3.
You left out the thugs, the thief, and now the two guards.
And no, not clearly magical, clearly mud-caked. Never once has the gm referred to us any more specifically than 'mud covered thing'. He hasn't specified our wings either. What he has said is that we almost appear to be a dirty stray dog. Which he has said are plentiful.
Whose claims?
We can see wings in the pictures he's drawn recently. If we can see them from above, why would other people--much closer and at a better angle--be unable to see them? And, for that matter, where would they go?
And we have, in fact, used magic...including, in one confirmed case, a time when it was obvious that we were using magic, and with a suspicious excuse (What kind of wizard disguises himself as a mud-covered winged thing to a few people?) that attracts more talk...
Actually, I'd say a dead dragon is a lot less likely to kill a would-be researcher than a live one.
As implied, we would try to kill the researcher or escape before he would do that. The researcher is a researcher, not a dragonslayer, so any killing would be left to the adventurers.
And they're not likely to delay.
And why would he keep us in a position where we could attack him?
How would he keep us from being in such a position?
Have you gotten the idea that I want to avoid causing civilian casualties? It strikes me that that will make things harder, both because we'd destroy much of the town and because we look vaguely draconic, leading to suspicions that the weird dragon-like mud monster might have been connected to the fire that destroyed the town...especially if a draconic creature shows up to try and get the amulet from the sorceress.
If it works we'd be out of the town that night.
Because adventurers never leave town to pursue people who killed large numbers of people and stole stuff from them. And because town governments don't care about such beings either.
Well, let me put it this way: An alliance is more likely to work than a confrontation, because a confrontation against a superior number of superior combatants will not end well. We have deception and friendship, and our deception ideas are lacking.
It wouldn't be an alliance though!
You keep saying this, but A. I've been showing that it could be if we tried, and B. you don't know enough about the adventurers to make the claims you have been.
We don't know anything. That's the problem. We need to learn more.
...How did that answer the question? We'd know and our burning guilt would force us to confess in a Raskolnikovian madness?
Here's a better question: If you don't mind burning a town, causing countless property damage and civilian casualties, why do you care about lies?
I didn't answer your question because your question was beside the point.
Pride.
Why was it beside the point?
What pride? The pride of an arsonist and mass-murderer who tells the truth? What kind of messed-up logic is that?
1. I don't understand your first point.
2. We were discussing why I held my views, not what the adventurers and their patrons thought.
Thus, it seems you're not being terribly germane...
The GM didn't say much on demons until after our discussion started.
You brought your thinking into this as an analogue for what the characters would do- their opinions about demons and those that deal with them. I've been pressing you on this because I assert it don't make no sense- so when you presented the argument of 'if there's a zealot guy, the other two party members won't be because of patterns in fictional prose', instead of just pointing out this doesn't apply to all universes, I pointed out the hypocrisy of assuming the composition of an adventuring party based on the same sources (meta-knowledge at that) that would also suggest all demons are evil, corrupt beings, thus linking back to that argument. If anything, rerouting back onto how the characters think is a step towards the germane.
1. So?
2. I brought my thinking as an example of what they
might do--again, this depends on information we lack. We need to find out rather than assuming. You know what happens when you assume, right?
Those are arguments I can deal with! Well they do have a big church nearby, and the master did start crap with them, (and tax collectors). Plus the populace might not be very friendly towards demons in general, and therefore slaying the demon-magician would be sweet! Along with his demon familiar! Isn't there a demon siege currently going on somewhere?
These things explain why a demon-slayer would be supported...but not why the local lords would give lodging. After all, there aren't that many demons around.
See: tax collectors.[/quote]
Counterargument:
See: Demons.
You need to explain things, not just say them. Are you saying the demon-slayers would pay taxes? If you're referring to the wizard's unpaid back taxes, that justifies paying them for a raid but not continuing to protect them afterwards, unless the adventurers are like the lord's violent auditors or something.
1. We'd still be a member. If we earn our (figurative) bread, we get to eat. If we prove that we're valuable to the group, we become part of the group. Certainly, stranger teams have happened IRL and in popular fantasy.
2. If it becomes a problem, take it and leave. It'll certainly be easier to steal once we're in the middle of the wilderness, sleeping in a tent, than now in the middle of a major town and within a well-guarded keep.
This assuming the best possible scenario for their reception of us. With the exception of giving us our amulet. In such a case, they wouldn't leave it out where we could get it. Or more likely, they won't give us free movement after hours. And if they put us in a cage, why would they ever let us out at all? We're the size of a cat, intelligent, can barely glide and semi-skilled in illusions. Not exactly battle material, but still quite able to steal things if they let their guard down.
Ooh, and we're vulnerable to theft, (high profile).
It's not the "best possible case," it's "not the worst possible case". Besides, you know what the adventurers should know happens when they lock something up? The locked-up thing becomes resentful. The adventurers should know that locking something up in fear that it will become a threat is a self-fulfilling prophecy, especially when that "something" is a small dragon...
I disagree, I have been continually addressing the issues. Dash in during the confusion, or attempt to climb the sloped wall (during the confusion).
Say this works, say no one notices and cares about the weird little mud-covered thing or accidentally blocks us, say we get in.
What then?
We don't even know where the sorceress's room is, or if that's where the amulet is being stored. If I was the sorceress, I sure wouldn't just leave the amulet lying around. A locked chest at minimum, perhaps request a spot in some vault.
We've managed to make people aware of us, as shown by those people chasing a muddy thing. If they thought we were just a stray cat or something, a thief attacking a woman would take greater priority. If they know we're more than that...it would explain their actions.
Besides, you're assuming that they don't know what the amulet is. There's no evidence for that. Presumably, an adventuring party has some way to figure out what magical items are...the sorceress wouldn't have experimented with the amulet with no idea what it did, after all.
I don't think they do, nor are, as I said above. The thief did, but he has a business associated with rumors & sensitive information.
You forgot the thugs.
And now the guards know for sure we're some kind of little monster guy. That's ruining our cover right there.
Again, we started this conversation quite a time ago. New information isn't relevant to our previous positions.
Oh yes, and the thugs and the guards rub shoulders all the time. Swap stories and everything.
Since when were we only discussing previous positions? That's foolish and futile. Maybe we should only discuss what we do now with information from the OP!
And while thugs and guards don't swap stories with each other, they
do swap stories with other people. These other people also share news they've heard. This leads to information spreading.
Oh, yes. "I have determined that this is an amulet which grants power to and over a familiar! I now control the familiar AHAHAHA!"
That's like saying that being able to recognize a SCUBA tank means you're PADI certified.
Assuming the amulet's hard to use. Either that, or they haven't fully identified it. Both are supposition. But you're the one that's trying to claim it as a reason we don't have surprise.
That is because it is stupid to assume we have surprise when there is no reason to do so. Even ignoring the evidence of people having seen us, when you have "High Profile" and have been stirring up muck in a city for a couple of days, the element of surprise should be a nice unintended bonus, not a core element of the plan.
Fair enough.
Thank you.
Please don't quote this, there's crazy enough post lengths already.
You mean that trying to steal it won't alert them?
"But we'll succeed!"
No, not likely. Remember: We need to break into a keep, and fight at least one adventurer. As a cat-sized dragon with minimal combat abilities.
And then we'll have three angry adventurers on our tails.
And what stops us from stealing the amulet once we're in the party, if we really must? "It'll be harder?" It's pretty darn impossible now, and in the future the security will be composed of tents and one guy at a time watching for wolves or bandits.
As the gm stated, we can likely handle a single person, (I'm assuming so long as we have our dragon fire). Plus illusions. If the city's turned into a medieval version of Dresden, we'll be able to cast our little illusions with impunity. With the element of surprise, (they don't know we're coming for the amulet), and our boosted magical abilities, I disagree with your evaluation of our chances.
Why would they drop whatever they were doing and chase us? Once we're outside the keep, we're practically home-free. No point of trying to track us down then.
Tents, a guy on watch (maybe), and a cage.
1. We can
likely handle a single person...assuming that that person is not unusual in some relevant way, or accompanied by another single person.
2. Mind if I ask for your logic here?
3. For reasons mentioned, we can't
assume that we have the element of surprise.
4. What boosted magical abilities?
5. Why? Because we stole something valuable from them, are connected with a person who they obviously disliked, gave them no reason not to, and
burned half the town.
Why are you still arguing for your previous stances?
Because that's what we've been doing. If what you said was wrong, I'm going to write you a speeding ticket. Even if it takes a dozen replies, I will try do so as long as you persist in thinking you're right or haven't convinced me otherwise.
...I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that you are arguing just to prove me wrong rather than to actually try and figure out what the best course of action for our character is?
No mention of wings or 'draconic' traits. Only a muddy thing that resembles a dog.
A claim that is not upheld by common sense or the artwork. And, remember, that disguise was made
days ago. I'd be surprised if it is still in prime condition. Heck, I'm surprised bits haven't been falling off.
Why?
And what makes you certain we can do that? Aside from terrorizing chickens, which frankly sounds a lot less interesting to me than joining an adventuring group's adventures.
To get more power, remaining safe while doing so. Terrorizing chickens is better than sitting in a cage.
I disagree. Well, not with the statement, but with what you're actually trying to say
Terrorizing chickens is dull, repetitive, and the only excitement will be when the farmers hire mercenaries to drive out the dragon...probably successfully. Adventuring with the adventurers gives us such things as a chance to be on adventures, no one trying to kill us, and a chance to become an actual member of the team...depending on how the adventurers are. If we investigate and discover that they're the type to stick us in a cage or kill us, with no chances, I'll gladly drop my idea of allying them, but
we don't know. Which is the devil in the details of all these debates.
Not killing her would attract less anger, not good. And I can't think of any non-lethal (or non-seeming-attempted-lethal, I should say) method of getting the amulet from the sorceress in your plan.
What disadvantages are you thinking of? We need more information regardless.
Illusions? Why would she fight to the death to protect her our amulet anyway?
Mainly the experimentations, plus lounging about longer = greater chance of being discovered/caught.
1. So...we scare her away, and hope she abandons the amulet and doesn't have any way of recognizing illusions when we can detect magic within a keep from outside it? And, for that matter, hope she
has the amulet? Could you explain this plan a bit more?
2. If we spend a whole day gathering information, it will be worth just about anything the sorceress can do to us...because we'll have information. Knowing may not be half the battle, but ignorance is the end of it...and not in our favor.
Think of all the things I said could go wrong. Could the sorceress not be alone? Could she not be as defenseless as you assume? Could the amulet not be in her room? Could she know that it's a Familiar Amulet, or have heard rumors of the muddy thing? Could the adventurers not give a tarnished copper piece about the well-being of the town? Could the adventurers be sufficiently vindictive and/or justice-seeking to pursue the creature that stole something valuable from them
and burnt half a city? The questions go on and on, and
until we get answers pretty much any plan is a gamble.
That's why we need to gather information.
