Bay 12 Games Forum

"Yeah, that too!"

"To stop Miss May from telling us what to do?"

"I agree! We should choose our leader by poplar consent! I vote for Miss Feyri!"

... if Active Defense doesn't exist, why would Passive be so easy to overcome with comperable stats? :p

Because of the way the game was designed.

Some games' combat systems are designed for quick combat, others for more drawn-out combat. In the former case, easily hitting an enemy would help.

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I really hate when people do this kind of stuff, because then someone else posts and I never see the arguments they edit in.
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Deal with it, it's up now.
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Yay. Why couldn't you add it to this post?

Also, guys, keep in mind that our new thief friend would likely notice any thefts that get up to that hefty sum of 30 gold. However, we might be able to fool him if we can get a couple gold & another bag- two bags, one of rocks inside a larger one, with the gold coins on top. We fool him into not seeing the other bag, and if he pulls out a coin or two his friends will see it's real. Perhaps?

Yes, let's try to cheat a thief. No way he's heard of cons like this before.
Unless we need to, we shouldn't do this. It ruins our credibility with him and probably won't work anyways.

SO MANY PYRAMIDS!

Shall we try snipping out bits?

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on June 23, 2013, 09:20:01 pm

As I said, a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
If that doesn't answer your question, consider this philosophical question: If it's easy, is it worth doing?
My point is, just because it's hard or time-consuming doesn't automatically mean we shouldn't do it.

And as another said, in the meantime they might kill us on-sight.

They might...which is part of why I keep pushing to gather information.
But if we're not a complete moron, we could simply not go into a situation with no escape. If we did so, we'd at least learn something about our enemies.

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You have a choice if you're dealing with demons.
You don't have a choice if you're a demon.
Dealing with a race known to typically delight in pain? Evil.
Being a member of a race known to typically delight in pain? Suspicious, but not evil in and of itself. Especially if you're only part-demon, and not willingly so. (Did we choose to be part-demon?)

I still fail to see how 'being affiliated with an evil(ish?) group' is worse than 'being part of an evil(ish) group'. As in 'murder the former, befriend the latter!'---- wouldn't that make our proposed party members demon-associators?

The biggest difference is that we'd have proven to be the exception.

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Yes, because a sorceress adventurer who is exhausted and therefore mostly vulnerable, who probably has accumulated a number of enemies through her adventuring, can be relied on to leave herself perfectly defenseless in her room while an emergency is going on. I could see her going with her friends, or having one stay behind, but I don't think we can count on her leaving herself undefended.

It's the keep of a city-not exactly undefended; or at least that's what we want them to think. Being well-established & powerful would actually help isolate her, 'No, fuck you, I can take care of myself, go on.'.

Ah. So you think that our little dragon can defeat the defenses of a keep? And that the sorceress wouldn't be concerned about threats that could do so? It seems to me that most things that can burn a city wouldn't have much trouble with a castle--and the fact that we're one but not the other doesn't help your side any.

Yep, we do. Why don't we have surprise?

Hm, because we have at least four or five confirmed and many possible people who saw us as a clearly magical, four-legged-and-winged creature, which is not a common sight in towns and will therefore not stay in peoples' minds? Could that be it?
To answer the question, yes. It's stupid to assume that none of these people would talk, that no one would share a story that could corroborate his claims.

Actually, I'd say a dead dragon is a lot less likely to kill a would-be researcher than a live one.

As implied, we would try to kill the researcher or escape before he would do that. The researcher is a researcher, not a dragonslayer, so any killing would be left to the adventurers.
And they're not likely to delay.

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Why?

Because fires kill people?

No, why kill them?

Because they are flammable? I'm suggesting starting fires, which would kill a lot of people. We're already talking about the fires, the people are just collateral.

Have you gotten the idea that I want to avoid causing civilian casualties? It strikes me that that will make things harder, both because we'd destroy much of the town and because we look vaguely draconic, leading to suspicions that the weird dragon-like mud monster might have been connected to the fire that destroyed the town...especially if a draconic creature shows up to try and get the amulet from the sorceress.

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My point was one where you claimed that alliances were impossible between groups of differing power, and I was proving you wrong.
Besides, in our case our Egypt can manage to get water if they work together with Ethiopia, with their only other option being trying to take on the (larger and better-armed) Ethiopia directly.
Yeah, the analogy sucks, but you're the one who brought it up...

Ok ok, if the water was in a fountain that could be stolen, and Egypt could run away from Ethiopia, then it'd fit.
Your examples didn't include a kill-switch & lack of independence- 'I have the controls to your explosive collar let's be allies!'

Well, let me put it this way: An alliance is more likely to work than a confrontation, because a confrontation against a superior number of superior combatants will not end well. We have deception and friendship, and our deception ideas are lacking.

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That requires them to figure it out. How would they? Would they interview our master and ask if her abducted any small dragons? Oh wait, he's dead and if he did he wouldn't admit to it.
Explain how they would find out, and I'll concoct a sob story that's entirely within the truth. Although that one is, technically, true...AFAIK, at least. I don't know exactly where he got the draconicness from.

We'd know, and it's important for how we roleplay. I'd be more interested in burning down the village than becoming a scheming pet- it's more honest.

...How did that answer the question? We'd know and our burning guilt would force us to confess in a Raskolnikovian madness?
Here's a better question: If you don't mind burning a town, causing countless property damage and civilian casualties, why do you care about lies?

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1. I'm basing my assumptions that demons are not all evil based A. on what the GM said and B. a knee-jerk dislike of universally homogenous groups bigger than one or maybe a few people.
2. Want more reasons? This whole place would need to be a major theocracy for a group of three highly zealotrous adventurers to be not only accepted but honored by the government, as well as well-rewarded and such. To say nothing of why a group of zealots is raiding tombs and killing wizards rather than going on crusades...

Now now, you can't be basing your arguments on new information if we're debating the merits of stances we held previously. As for the knee-jerk, that might not be shared by the Just guy, (already covered).

1. I don't understand your first point.
2. We were discussing why I held my views, not what the adventurers and their patrons thought.
Thus, it seems you're not being terribly germane...

Those are arguments I can deal with! Well they do have a big church nearby, and the master did start crap with them, (and tax collectors). Plus the populace might not be very friendly towards demons in general, and therefore slaying the demon-magician would be sweet! Along with his demon familiar! Isn't there a demon siege currently going on somewhere?

These things explain why a demon-slayer would be supported...but not why the local lords would give lodging. After all, there aren't that many demons around.

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I don't expect to be the leader...but you don't need to be the leader to get a say. This isn't the military, this isn't a dictatorship--it's a band, a gang, a small group where at least some level of democracy and cooperation is needed for group cohesion, let alone success.

True, but we're not human, part demon, and kinda small. Oh, and we have a killswitch in their possession & can't leave their presence so long as they have it.

1. We'd still be a member. If we earn our (figurative) bread, we get to eat. If we prove that we're valuable to the group, we become part of the group. Certainly, stranger teams have happened IRL and in popular fantasy.
2. If it becomes a problem, take it and leave. It'll certainly be easier to steal once we're in the middle of the wilderness, sleeping in a tent, than now in the middle of a major town and within a well-guarded keep.

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Steal it back now? How? The crazy "Set a fire and hope the sorceress leaves herself unguarded in case of emergency" plan?

Yes, that one.

The one you haven't really addressed the issues to, except by claiming that she'd feel safe in the keep which you still haven't proposed how we even would enter?

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We've managed to make people aware of us, as shown by those people chasing a muddy thing. If they thought we were just a stray cat or something, a thief attacking a woman would take greater priority. If they know we're more than that...it would explain their actions.
Besides, you're assuming that they don't know what the amulet is. There's no evidence for that. Presumably, an adventuring party has some way to figure out what magical items are...the sorceress wouldn't have experimented with the amulet with no idea what it did, after all.

I don't think they do, nor are, as I said above. The thief did, but he has a business associated with rumors & sensitive information.

You forgot the thugs.
And now the guards know for sure we're some kind of little monster guy. That's ruining our cover right there.

Perhaps some or part of it, but it's just as likely that they only know it's some kinda magical amulet, traced with demonic power. If they knew what it was, she may have been able to take control of us.

Oh, yes. "I have determined that this is an amulet which grants power to and over a familiar! I now control the familiar AHAHAHA!"
That's like saying that being able to recognize a SCUBA tank means you're PADI certified.

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1. Why would raising the alarm make them lower their security? I mean, fires don't start every day, let alone around the time you get back from raiding a wizard's castle and a muddy dragon-shaped thing has been seen wandering about.
2. We shouldn't limit ourselves by proving demonic stereotypes right, either. Face it: Either path limits us in some way. We may not be beholden to anyone, but we can't hope to survive if we turn everyone against us, regardless of why we do so.

Because they'd be helping put it out and 'Hey, jeez, look at that fire! holy cow.' That isn't what I'm proposing though- I'm proposing we get our amulet back. If I were to say, 'hey guys, let's prove demon stereotypes true!', that would have the same argumentative weight as 'Let's not prove demon stereotypes true!'. They may already be against us. We sure don't want to find out.

I understand that they might want to help...but for all we know, they're the lazy adventurers who wouldn't even help put out a fire if the tavern they were in was burning. Besides, being willing to help doesn't mean they'd drop their guard entirely.
As to the latter case: My point is that burning the town and deciding not to be Evil both close off options. Let's figure out which one closes off options that are harder to get to before making a decision.

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Not until you explain why we'd be "physically unable" to leave. Remember: If we can steal it now, we can steal it when we're travelling with the exact same people.

They'll know we're after it, they may do something with us. We won't be able to physically leave until we have it, so unless by some whimsical stroke of luck they deign to give us our leash, we won't be able to leave, & our relationship will not be the same as a normal party member's.

You mean that trying to steal it won't alert them?
"But we'll succeed!"
No, not likely. Remember: We need to break into a keep, and fight at least one adventurer. As a cat-sized dragon with minimal combat abilities.
And then we'll have three angry adventurers on our tails.
And what stops us from stealing the amulet once we're in the party, if we really must? "It'll be harder?" It's pretty darn impossible now, and in the future the security will be composed of tents and one guy at a time watching for wolves or bandits.

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1. Again, there are too many coincidences for them not to suspect...especially if a muddy dragony thing like what people have been talking about tries to steal the amulet, and later a draconic creature shows up saying he needs the amulet to survive.
2. What "baby dragon things" do you have in mind? Adventuring is as good a thing to do as any, IMHO.

They can suspect, but they won't know. (this changes since we've revealed ourselves to the thief, mind you. Argueing previous stance.)

Why are you still arguing for your previous stances?

We're a muddy thing, not a muddy dragony thing. If we get lucky they may not even know were the one that stole the amulet.

Hello? Wings. That alone makes us look dragony. Combined with such factors as the slithery tail and the draconic head, and we look pretty darn dragony.

Perhaps establish a lair, practice abilities & skills, get older & more powerful. That fantastic adventure to the draco-beast kingdom of the north. Terrorizing the country-side local cows chickens.
Point is, what we want to do.

Why?
And what makes you certain we can do that? Aside from terrorizing chickens, which frankly sounds a lot less interesting to me than joining an adventuring group's adventures.

The way I see it, we have two choices here:
1. Burninate the whole town! Hope that the adventurers leave a single unguarded sorceress as the only thing guarding the amulet as the others go to help with the fire. Hope that a small dragon can defeat said sorceress. Steal the amulet. Flee and hope that the sorceress's companions and possibly the sorceress don't find and kill us.
2. Keep the diplomatic option open long enough to find out more about the adventurers.

We wouldn't be killing her, (that'd attract ire, not good), #2 comes with downsides as well.
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Not killing her would attract less anger, not good. And I can't think of any non-lethal (or non-seeming-attempted-lethal, I should say) method of getting the amulet from the sorceress in your plan.
What disadvantages are you thinking of? We need more information regardless.
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I vote strength, it seems like the draconic thing to do...

Meh. I'm not really thinking that we're going to succeed by trying to be a stereotypical Dragon Monster Rar! at cat-sized. And, honestly, I don't think it would help or be a lot of fun.


Hm...I'll vote Magic, since upgrading our illusion magic seems like the best way to improve our advantages over random people we encounter.

Accede to the request of the people.

Only the reasonable ones, +1.

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on June 23, 2013, 10:28:10 pm

Quote from: dermonster on June 23, 2013, 10:15:10 pm

Man, if everyone followed that a lot of human history would have been significantly more boring.

Most people did follow that, though...

I believe the emphasis here would be placed on 'most.'

Touche.

I think I set a record for the amount of research done into Queensland universities done for a forum game. Actually, I put a disproportionate amount of research into this, even researching octopus genus names. I feel like I put too much effort into this.
Well, here's hoping I'm wrong.

Anyways, is this okay?