Bay 12 Games Forum

DL2 changed significantly between the last time we were there and now. The shop room had a door to the north, leading to vending machines. One of those vending machines ended up where we met Yaos (also apparently the way to Proxxy).

What makes you think this applies to all of the Warrens, let alone the Underside?
Or that it wasn't triggered by major destruction caused by a certain Illborn we all know and (thanks to being turned back) love?

Also, I just noticed this, but I suggest you quote this post and look at the filenames of those images.

That was mentioned before. By freeform, even. It was the original design for Oric.

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Then there's the questions this raises about just what Soul Stars are and signify. This would seem to make them more significant than we thought, but we still don't know who gets one and why, or why they'd interact with a lack of soul charge to transform you into a horrible monster.

I thought for the most part we've known from the beginning that Soul Stars are very important and very significant. We've learned since then they they do not simply belong to someone, but are a part of them. See Slog's backstory. It mentions for a brief moment Slog saw his Soul Star before it was taken away. It heavily implies that a Soul Star is some kind of manifestation of the soul.

Surprisingly, that doesn't tell us very much. In part, I suppose, because we don't know what a "soul" is in the Warrensverse, but also because we don't know all that they do. In particular, what happens if they are destroyed or tampered with? We can only guess from Riltia.

Soul Charge is mentioned several times. See the Sinful intermission and the Soul Charge tip. Soul Charge appears to be made up of emotions, feelings, and memories of the person. Illborn are creatures with no or less Soul Charge and we know that killing a non-Illborn will increase Soul Charge. It seems that without Soul Charge the Soul Star loses integrity. See Riltia's situation when Ciro restored her. Her Soul Star got messed up, but giving her Soul Charge put it back in working order. I imagine that Soul Stars are like variable in a computer program. If you subtract 1 from a variable at its lowest value, the result is the highest possible number for the variable. Stuff like this can bring about weirdness if the program doesn't expect it or handle it.

I'd like to point out that we had more than Soul Charge available. We were in Oversoul, which to me seems to be, how did freeform put it, "something about narrative control". It lets us do things which make hardly any sense to move the plot in the direction we want it to, if my interpretation of it is correct.

It seems that being a Willborn has something to do with the Soul. We fight the Willborn inside its corrupted Soul because fighting the outside beast is impossible. If the Soul Stars are, in fact, Souls as it is implied then a Willborn does require the presence of a Soul Star.

Hm.
Illborn are bodies without a soul.
Are Willborn souls without a body?

Now a minor potential problem I can see in the future is... if we fight Proxxy and she has her Soul Star... she could take a last ditch effort and smash it. If smashing a Soul Star has the same effect as the tampering on Riltia's (which is to say caused her Soul Charge to go down) then she might go One-Winged Angel on us. Even worse, if this theory about Willborn is correct she might be even worse.

Or she could simply die, because she lost her soul. Remember, Riltia's soul star was tampered with, not smashed to itty bitty pieces.

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on June 05, 2013, 10:29:54 pm

Quote from: Harbingerjm on June 05, 2013, 10:21:57 pm

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on June 05, 2013, 08:57:24 pm

such as playing non-Siblings for a while (whatever that means),

Given the ability of our Soul Star, I seriously doubt that's all that uncommon, or important (whoever set up the cycles would have to be incredibly incompetent to miss that we would end up doing that).

For a while, not just switching over to make them do something or something. Also notable that Ciro is dead during that time.
Maybe not unheard of, but almost certainly notable.

The Soul Star stopped working for a while after each switch, so it's not unlikely that previous cycles would have stuck as someone else for a bit, and that this would have been planned for by whoever set up the cycles. As for whether he's dead or not, it might not be common but that it might happen is an easy logical inference given the abilities of the Soul Star and the fact that we apparently start each cycle with no idea what we're doing. As such, it too should have been accounted for when setting up the cycles.

1. We spent a rather long time in Al's body; then, when it recharged, we switched to another non-Sibling person. That could easily be much longer than typical.
2. I fail to see how this is germane.

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on June 05, 2013, 10:29:54 pm

I find this doubtful, but time will tell.
I certainly doubt its commonness.

I'm not trying to judge how common it is (that's hard to say without knowing how different previous iterations of us may have been, though the fact that it has been suggested Proxxy changes fairly often implies she would have problems learning from the experience if we do swipe her minions), just how important it actually is overall. Like I said before, anomalies are likely to happen every cycle, so simply that something might be an anomaly does not make it important. In this case, we should be able to gather more information soon.

Never become a cyclical villain who relies on each cycle being the same to ensure that each ends in your victory. A change is an unpredictable thing; it causes more changes. Worse, they have causes, which might easily cause more changes in even less predictable fashions. Oric should be concerned about them.

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on June 05, 2013, 10:29:54 pm

And then not get wrecked. This isn't something they always do, otherwise they wouldn't have commented so much on it. Regardless, it bored new holes. That can't be good for structural stability...

Since we still don't know for sure what the Warrens even is, who knows the effects on stability, but if Proxxy felt fine sending a bomb after us in Underside that totally messed the place up, going so far as to damage the local life support, I doubt structural stability is too great a concern.

I'm guessing that there was a bit of unintended collateral damage there.

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on June 05, 2013, 10:29:54 pm

What makes you say that,

We've seen it happen, seen others comment on it, and possibly seen part of the process behind it.

Yeah, I had forgotten. Of course, there's a problem of if the monster was released because the dungeon level could repair, or if the dungeon level was repaired because a huge monster was released.

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on June 05, 2013, 10:29:54 pm

and what makes you think that's a quality of the whole Warrens?

I don't, though it does seem likely that a fair amount of it is given the haphazard nature of the first floor and the fact that the second floor is confirmed to switch. However, nothing makes me think the Underside is actually part of the Warrens either, as opposed to something that formed around it naturally (and by naturally I mean due to damage, people trying to dig out, access tunnels and such being made, etc).

The first level didn't change, the second might have been repaired, and then you admit that the Underside would probably not be part of it.
Nice.

I'm downloading the song to listen to later.

Efficiency, yes. Consistency, no. But, my way using Prof Bigf00t's strategem could save on mana AND eliminate other possibilities (You just need to summon 2 test subjects (1 material, 1 material-shape), then subject them to a new word each turn (See if holding one in each hand lets you enchant both at once, cutting this down by half again)). Since tattoos replace other tattoos, you'd only see the final effect after trying.
Compromise, it's a wonderful thing. And even I can do this test each turn. Woot!

Which stratagem?

Two mortals on the world. Two, and a god of survival. Survival is a needed base, but it is not enough to survive--one must also live! To live, one needs more than two. Neyravah almost rushed in, but stopped. They examined the mortals and the world, trying to help give them food and what else they obviously needed for life.

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on June 05, 2013, 07:24:50 pm

Well, it's kinda foolish to assume she could.

Flying would probably be by far the most mundane thing she's done so far, especially with an ability that would work so differently if the illusions couldn't all be within reach at the same time.

So...people who can turn invisible can float?

Quote from: flabort on June 05, 2013, 09:09:12 pm

GET OUT OF THE WAY!

Too slow and probably not a dodgeable spell in the first place. For this to work, she'd need to be using an ability that targets the ground, not a person, it'd need to be a small enough area of effect for us to escape in one move (which doesn't look like it was the case last time), and she'd need to have been forced to select the target on her first cast action and henceforth had no control over it.

...or I guess it could be a touch range spell, which might explain her moving towards us in the first place.

Or it could be a range of some kind.

Quote from: kingfisher1112 on June 05, 2013, 09:40:13 pm

Wait, where are our armies? I don't see them.

They're the stars.

And the fleets are arrows.
Note to self: Recolor units.

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on June 05, 2013, 04:00:39 pm

Quote from: Harbingerjm on June 05, 2013, 07:01:31 am

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on June 05, 2013, 06:49:54 am

And when the people in charge are noting anomalies, something weird is going on...

That may well happen every cycle.

If it happens regularly, why would it be considered an anomaly? Anomalies are weird, unexplained or unexpected things, not things that happen periodically. "It's been four years since the last presidential election and now there's another? What an anomaly!" I don't think so.

I didn't mean that a given anomaly happens every cycle, if it did that it obviously wouldn't be an anomaly (unless of course it kept happening every time and they had no idea why, but in that case it would probably just be noted as "yep, that strange thing happened again").
I meant that they may well be noting anomalies every cycle, especially since each cycle would be quite different given that a number of the participants change significantly between cycles.
Saying "this cycle has anomalies therefore it's gone way off the rails!" is crazy talk (yes I realise that saying that here is probably redundant), anomalies are to be expected in something the size and complexity of the Warrens/Underside/wherever else the cycles cover.

Ah.
I see your argument.
Still, the anomalies we've identified, such as playing non-Siblings for a while (whatever that means), recruiting a Sibling and a major minion of another, and a giant Sibling/Illborn/Yandere thing carbing tunnels through the Warrens, seem like ones that would throw off the Cycle...

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on June 05, 2013, 07:14:33 pm

Yes.
It basically seemed like you were saying that you made new games to recharge your creative batteries and to make you more attached to those forum games which survived, which made me suspect that I was misinterpreting things.

Well... that's pretty much it, yes. I'm not sure what your question is that isn't answered by that.

...Huh. That is counter to how I would have expected it would work.

Anyways:

Is there any way for us to help in times like these when you're busy? It seems like this is absurdly difficult for an individual with no support to maintain.

Agreed. Although I doubt I would be able to help much. About the only thing I can think of that might be possible is for freeform to outsource the art to an eager fan, and while I am many things, good at computer art is NOT one of them.

It's been two days. Normally I'd follow through on my threat, but only two people have actually submitted a turn, which is less than a third, so I suspect that I should allow leniency.