Bay 12 Games Forum

Accept his surrender. Incapacitate him.

Whose turn is it?

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I MUST update tonight! MUST! NOT! RUIN! PERFECT! RECORD!

Even if it ruins my REM sleep!

Respawn as a clown.
Dance through everyone's courts, entertaining them happily.

[6] You are a truly ludicrous clown. Ability gained: No Dignity.

Upgrade my laser pointer to a laser rifle and acquire power armor, and summon the Enclave to join me If possible. Turn to Doomblade and say

"I will aid you in your battles against the Dark Lords if you aid me in defending the Liches."

[5] You now have a laser rifle.

Lead the heroes into battle against the minions of the Dark Lords! Also, aid corai in defending the liches.
"I'll help defend them."

[5] Success! You genocide the orcs!

give sauron the sword.

[2-2] You grab the sword by the blade, assuming it wouldn't be sharp. It is, and because you're cutting someone (you), the sword cuts back more. Result: Severed fingers.

Think of something to do that does not get me anywhere remotely near the crazy people and SCP units.

[3] You wander away. Before long, you're heading back towards the tower. Dang anomalies.

Quote from: TopHat on February 07, 2013, 02:39:31 pm

Kill self. Respawn next to HatArmy. Summon HatRienforcements. Have Hatlings attack SCP foundation.

Do

[6] AHAHAHAHAHA! It's a foolproof plan that's only failed a few times in the past! Oh, look, the Hatlings have set up a democratic pastoral society focusing on bowler husbandry as their prime economic activity. They treat you as a terrorist and lock you up.

The dice are rigged, I keep getting below a 4. Ever since my pants on head idea. true facts.

Respawn as Arena. Gain awareness.

Blame random.org, not me.
[3] You respawn as a genus loci for a hut in the arena.

Summon 100 animal mascots to the magic girls faction to raise our faction bonus.

[5] Your bonuses get automatically boosted a bit!

EQUIP TURTLE BROUGHT BACK FROM THE UNIVERSE OF A MINIMALIST RTD FINISHED IN AGES PAST

WIN NOBEL PRIZE

[4] You get a turtle. [1] Nobel personally visits the battlefield by a new interim portal, accompanied by Theodore Roosevelt and Andrew Jackson, the two most badass presidents in history. [4+2+1v1] They punch your head off!

W8. Go find moe moe chili anime desu ladies and party with them.

[4] The party starts!

BOSS TURN:
The Dark Lords, the Liches, the Silver Golem, and the Foundation send their best members in single combat with each other and Corai: Darth Vader, the Lich, Able, Corai, and the silver golem begin a five-way. [2+2v6+3v2+3v4] While the others put up a good fight, the lich kills the competition with its mighty blade.
The Foundation gathers up various anomalous items.
Reality fractures a bit more. [4] A portal to Historical Earth opens up, disgorging a few presidents.


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Alright. With your action, submit a nomination for who you think The Final Boss is in this game.

Name: Wally East
Description: A fast man, who is considering subbing in for The Flash when all is said and done here. Sure, he's not quite that fast, but he has a gun.

Str: -----
End: -----
Dex: ++
Agi: +++++
Luk: +++

Pistol: +++++
SMG: +
Rifle: +
Shotgun: -
Explosives: --
Melee: ----

Initiative: 19

Let me know when my turn comes up.

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on February 06, 2013, 08:18:36 pm

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Also, learn to seperate jargon from informal use.  I used "gastropod" as an adjective, Not as a noun. "Gastropod" as a noun has a very specific use. "Gastropod" as an adjectie relates to body plan, as an abstract high level concept. They are not the same, and the use was not the same. Calm down francis, and enjoy the game.

I have never seen "gastropod" used as anything but the name of the clade which contains snails, slugs, sea butterflies, etc.

May I suggest that "gastropodal" or perhaps "gastrapoid" be used in this sort of case, much as with (in fact, quite similar to) one might describe a fictional alien with no implied relation to the gastropods of Earth, but having the apparent phenotype of one when it comes to trying to describe it[1].
Not being so intimate (fnar fnar) with the subset of the natural world, it's possible that one or other of these words are already taken to mean something technical, of course, so feel free to ignore me...

Alright...but how are flesh balls gastropoid?

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Point missed

This is not helpful. Please elaborate and be painfully specific. I was operating under the presumption that Kohaku is an educated and intelligent individual, and has already been exposed to the workings of economic systems, including natural economic systems, like food chains. How would it be appropriate to rub his/her nose in that, given I am operating on the assumption that they are educated about that topic already, and that I don't want to be condescending?

Kohaku's point, if I understand it, was that saying "Ecomonics!" as a solution to a problem doesn't actually say or solve anything.

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(Concerning racism being necessary)
Why?

Again, see the very purpose of including "others" in fiction. The purpose of including others is NOT to show how they are "just like us!", they exist in fiction to show what WE "are not."  Couple that with the directly linked section. The consequence is that any given group will show innate racial preference (implicit racism) for beings it views to be like itself, over beings it does not view to be like itself.  Consider: should adorable kitties be allowed to vote? How about chimpanzees? Neanderthals? Perhaps Denisovans?  The mere fact that the answers to those questions are different, illustrates the point. Humans are innately racist agains "animals", because they "aren't like us".  The more "like us" they become, the harder it is to answer that question. Elves are like Neanderthals, in that they are like us, but can never really integrate into our society. They are purpetually doomed to the "other, not like us" category. This means the racism issue will have to be present, to be correct.

...What does it say that I can't even remember what the original suggestion was at first?
How is racism required for technological development?

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(Relating to homogenized, 100% random cultures)
I don't see a problem.

Again, "Others". It negates the very purpose of incuding others, if you turn them into "sames".
One of the gameplay mechanics that players have grown to love about this game, is the endless, relentless, and brutal assaults by "vile forcess of darkness".  When the pacifist goblins of early .31 came out, the forums were swamped with people demanding to know why, because that mechanic was fundementally broken. A peaceful, rainbows and sunshine world lacks drama, and is boring. Toady needs to avoid producing boring worlds.

True enough, but "random" is the enemy of "homogenous." There would be "Others," not all "Sames." 100% Random--which is, incidentally, not what Kohaku, I, or anyone else I'm aware of is suggesting--would just add to the interest and Otherness, not to mention mean that having some violent cultures would still be about as guaranteed as they are now.

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Those are not incompatible viewpoints.

I didn't say they were! The argument was against a false accusation; that I wanted cookie cutter dwarves to begin with-- that instituting racially induced restraints made dwarves into such cookie cutter civs to begin with. I was arguing that it does no such thing, and that failure to introduce such restraints made them identical to humans, just short and with beards, because the proceedural generator would treat them the same.

But why would it?

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(Regarding pacifist goblins being anomalies)
What makes you think they won't be in the new system?

By failing to account for the "driven to cruelty" aspect of their race, for starters. Without it, they are just humans with green skin to the worldgen algo. Goblin berry farms would be a very common occurance, because that is more stable than constantly being at war. The equasion MUST be rigged, or else it won't work properly. The nature of that cruelty should be RNG'ed, but their base alignment should not be.

What makes you think it won't be accounted for?

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The differences between human and dwarven biology aren't that severe

Truely!? And here I thought that dwarves died when they didn't get alcohol, and experienced mysterious siezures in their adult lives resulting in either insanity, or the creation of a unique artifact! Not to mention that the weakest dwarf is 25% stronger than the weakest human, and potentially totally superhuman strength at the peak end... Or how they can survive much more serious injuries, and heal faster/better without treatment.  yes. Clearly, dwarves don't have any seriously culturually altering biological differences. (/Sarcasm)

Dwarves don't die from alcohol loss, they suffer from withdrawal. Strange moods are more of a supernatural psychological effect than anything physiological--it's certainly not a seizure. Dwarves do have greater strength and liver size, but that's hardly anything that would make a giant change in culture, especially as the former would balance out the smaller size. And the things about better survival applies to DF!humans as much as DF!dwarves.

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(Relating to homogenized characteristics)
What makes you think Kohaku wants that?

The premise that he/she wants to rely excusively on the RNG, without poking it first, and argues against such poking, insisting that doing so is racist. The assertion that racial traits are too general to impact culture, despite clearly and profoundly altering the intrinsic needs of the races in question. And of course, the over-arching subtle stink of wanting to view (and make) all the races equal.

Strawmanning.

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Missing kotaku's point; saying it shouldn't always be that way.

You clearly don't comprehend that systems that can't turn a surplus are doomed to failure, due to entropy, and that this occurs in completely natural systems, without sapient actors as well. It can't work (for long) without it being in place. That is, unless you have an ingenious example up your sleeve, in which case, by all means share!

....Huh? How is your idea the only one in which a surplus is run?

The only one I can even remotely think of is a paracitical relationship, like supporting a tapeworm.  This is outside the scope of a "trade" relationship, however.  Traders are quite correct to shout that they can't trade at a loss.
You could, I suppose argue that "altruism" could be a situation where trading at a loss is expected, but altruism is never what it seems. Altruism is really just accepting a lower efficiency, to etain an expensive asset from being lost, and becomes a value decision. Eg, allowing 75% of the population to die from plague is more expensive than devoting the kingdom's resources for a year into containment and treatment. Likewise with preserving a neighbor; you preserve them now, as a gamble that they will be valuable trade partners later.  It is still a long term profit motive, and therefor not really trading at a loss, and thus not true altruism. If you look at any system claiming altruism, you will always find a profit motive, or you will find resource depletion and collapse.
If you want a system that doesn't result in dead civs, you need to make that system discourage profitless trading. It's an unfortunate reality.

...
I don't think we're talking about the same thing.

How so? They deal with a world that responds over geological time. They have a biological clock with the hour and minute hands missing. They don't die of old age, and don't appear to suffer any age related decline, so they shouldnt get senile. 

They do, however, die. They live longer than humans, but certainly not for millenia--something *cough*dwarvesorgoblinsorsomething* always seems to cut their lives short.

The world in their retreat is like a timewarp. Days pass, but little changes. As such, the 'last time' the logging happened would seem like yesterday, especially if the elves only visit friends and family every century or so, and consider the passing of years like we consider the passing of days.

It depends on the psychological makeup of the elves, and how we want them to be in that respect, which comes back to my original argument: their nature will play a profound role in how their culture develops. How we define that nature is supremely important!

Just because you live for centuries doesn't mean that a century isn't a century to you. It just means you know you're likely to be around in the next century.

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Yes, goblins are going to behave differently from some standpoint, as they have natural distrustful and violent tendencies, but you know what?  That's not culture.  Elves loving nature isn't racial, it's cultural.  Elves raised in human cities really are mostly just pointy-eared humans, but for some emotional and physiological differences.  The respect for nature part, however, is not genetic, it's cultural

They are culture influenced dirrectly from biological differences

That's possible. It's also possible that it's not. We're getting to nature vs. nurture here; come back in a few centuries, maybe we'll have an answer to that conundrum by then. Until then, there's not much point arguing it.

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First, I want to reiterate that you not only can't consider one's "racial" culture nothing but a starting point, so that a dwarven nation that is isolated from all other races will have a different culture than a dwarven nation that has contact and intermingling with all other races, but that all cities/forts/whatever within those nations will also have their own cultures

The Dwarven Isolation is caused by their biology. Exactly what would happen if it was an entire race of Albinos.

How so?

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An elf among dwarves (especially an elf-king among dwarves) may have higher agility, and maybe a talk-with-animals ability (which may or may not change, I've seen Toady talk about changing that so that it's part of following the druidism thing) but they are not in connection with the druidic spirit of nature that runs elven cultures

Their connection to nature is bestowed to them by the nature of their very being and not because of any higher being's allowance. It is as inherant to them as humans have arms.

Then explain Cacame.

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Meanwhile, a dwarf in an elven culture does follow those teachings, which includes the whole not cutting down trees thing and not using metal

An Elf wouldn't follow all the resulting culture from Elves. I already distilled what I thought was the fundemental aspects of a elven society that cannot change due to their biological makeup. Which was that their connection to nature skews the line between sentients and animals.

Why is it part of their biology? That's like saying that bacon and eggs for breakfast is part of Western culture because of Caucasian biology.

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The way I would implement it is, if a dwarf is so inclined to research (or a research job is created), then at the appropriate workshop (smelter for instance) and if they have the appropriate skill (in this example some form of smithing

My personal oppinion is that research is something that occurs outside fortress mode. mostly because research is a vague concept. If it was something like studying bodies, with a doctor, so you can use medical proceedures on them in the not so distant future... I can see that.

Why couldn't a played fortress discover stuff?

If it is "You armorsmith, RESEARCH!". Technology should be a concequence that naturally occurs within a fortress otherwise.

Agreed.

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Goblins, by the nature of the way they act, are more likely to follow the whims of a single "great leader", for better or for worse.  Their Might Makes Right dogma means that any time the infighting is quelled, there is a relatively strong central power that can greatly influence the direction of the culture, but at the same time, this quelling may be nigh-on-impossible without some sort of powerful unifying force (like a demon or massive external threat). This can mean pretty massive social changes in a short period of time one way or another, similar to the potentially quite destructive changes wrought by the changing of an emperor of China

It mostly means that goblin society and even their form of leadership is very unstable even when a strong leader occurs. Where how stable it is depends entirely on its leader.
I made a suggestion a while ago that Goblin attacks should occur less frequently after you slay a leader because of infighting to become the new leader.

Once a leader who can keep the position is chosen, his/her absolute power can cause great changes, in one direction or another.

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Goblins are, ultimately, unlikely to ever be a trading partner

Ehh, I could see it. They would be a temporary trading parter and prone to betrayal, afterall there really is no such thing as loyalty to the goblins only favortism, but it could be done.

Unlikely, not impossible.

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Elves are a much harder sell, since the most defining aspect of their culture is still fairly vague.  That is, the Nature Spirit

To me the nature spirit is not the requirement for Elves to function, nor is it dramatically different then other dieties other then it is a diety of a land mass (It is also why I consider Titans to be true incarnate gods)

The "nature spirit," the biggest aspect of their culture which is different than the other races', is pretty undefined at this point. Is it a deity? A philosophy? A demon/titan/elf in disguise?

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This may, again, be eventually made part of culture/entity, not race, by Toady.  That would mean humans raised in elven lands might eventually start talking to animals, and elves completely cut off from their heritage, or who have completely sunk into decadence or otherwise shun their nature cult would lose it.

Honestly my view of it is that it is inherant and more stemming from the Elven existance and any "source" is purely in world mythology no different then saying the Human intelligence was given to them by Kukomando the god of Wind. It isn't something that can be divorsed from an elf and removing it would be similar to removing a major trait from an entire race or animal as it is deeply seated in their psychology.

Certainly the ability could be magically given to others... but in the same vein you can give intelligence to an animal or life to a corpse.

And you can make a human unintelligent or a living thing into a corpse, even both of those have biological bases and would therefore be harder to "undo" than talking to animals...assuming that it wasn't an entirely learned trait.

Though this is all interpretation really.

Agreed.

The problem should be hacked at from the roots, not a single branch.

Dwarves need to be able to think, "I should run to safety. The fortress is safe. Therefore, I shall run to the fortress."
Right now, they think, "There is a goblin in that direction. I will run in the opposite direction."