Bay 12 Games Forum

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on January 04, 2013, 06:50:11 pm

Quote from: Rolepgeek on January 04, 2013, 06:47:14 pm

They aren't elves though. Elves don't have wings. And Elves don't typically have anything to do with gods of justice. Fae have pointy ears too, typically, and magic.

Tell that to EVERYONE ELSE.

We(I) get it, we(I) will stop riff you about that.

I thank you(you).

They aren't elves though. Elves don't have wings. And Elves don't typically have anything to do with gods of justice. Fae have pointy ears too, typically, and magic.

Tell that to EVERYONE ELSE.

"Would it kill you to stand still so I can heal you?"
(Seriously. That's my biggest issue with being a medic. "Medic! Medic! Medic!" STOP JUMPING YOU STUPID SCOUT, I CAN'T HEAL YOU IF YOU DON'T STOP FOR TWO SECONDS.)

Heal...whichever team is on my side.
Steal an Ubersaw.

But then he'd have to admit that he's bluffing.

...Seriously? I'm gone for seven hours and my entire plan is undermined. Hrmmph. Well, if y'all are gonna be like that, GWG isn't getting any part of the judging process.

I'm the only one who's not outright hostile! Why are you punishing me?

I bet the temple is full of trees. And flowers. And other Elfy stuff.

The Eladrin are not elves. Do I need to get them to cut down some trees for you?
Seriously, you're ALL as responsible for them being elves as I, because while I gave them pointy ears and magic, YOU not only didn't mention it, but also connected the two concepts!

...Rolepgeek, can I please retcon the Eladrin's appearance before I turn into the God of Destroying Everything Which Claimed The Eladrin Are Elves? I'm seriously *this* close right now. I need a chance to rest.

Still surprised said God has not discovered a certain bad thing about to happen

Oh, sure. I'm surprised you haven't discerned a certain very !!Good! thing to happen soon...

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Agreed...except that there are other ways to work together. Yes, goblin society works differently. It relies more on fear and such than any desire of helping each other, but it works. Also, low altruism means that you're willing to help others if you also help yourself. It's not required, but it's not ignored.

No it is absolutely required and there are no ways around it. It isn't "Low Altruism" goblins uttarly lack this trait. They have no drive, need, or instinct to do good outside of themselves.

A society will never form under these circumstances naturally. It can only be done artificially.

...I explained how a society with no altruism could function.
Want more ways? Look at US society now, subtract charities and most subsidies, and add a demon in the White House who wants to keep everyone alive and functioning. Now make everyone 15% shorter and have green skin, and reduce us to the Iron Age. You have goblin society.

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Semi/Megabeasts actually start above 0 years of age, FYI. I don't remember the exact number, sadly

Any that are born after the start are older then that. This is done so the world doesn't start full of babies (mechanically).

...And?

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I have seen no evidence in DF that anything was created by the gods.

There are strong hints, including that several locations are dirrectly linked to a god. Thus creating the Earthly and Celestial Pantheon.

Interesting...any of these not temples?

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Au contrare. Toady has done his best to implment real life physics in DF. Is it perfect? No. Is there any evidence that the basic laws of the universe are supposed to act any different from how they act IRL? No.

There are several instances with big differences between the laws of physics in real life and Dwarf Fortress. For example the Dragons who use firebreath via magic and not chemical or the existance of "Tiny" intelligent animals.

Those are, in fact, magic.
Magic is fine in some circumstances, but when possible science should be used.
And how "tiny" do intelligent creatures get? About the smallest creature of human-level intellect is the dwarf.

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Are you saying that applying biology to DF creatures is illogical?

Yes, applying laws of nature that do not exist in DF is illogical.

Um. What makes you think they don't exist?

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Give me a reason for nonhuman intelligences to work differently that doesn't involve "The Gods just made it that way."

Food supply ran short causing the pack animal to become a solitary creature with intelligence being a hold over. Done.

...That doesn't make any sense. If there was a food shortage that was long enough for basic psychology to be affected, the size of the brain and amount of resources it used would also be reduced, because without a complex social structure, you don't need as complex a brain (certainly not as complex as a human's), and a brain like ours is a huge drain on resources.

Actually the sheer size of all the Semimegabeasts suggests that they "must" be solitary or at most pair creatures. A tribe of Giants could never gather enough food to feed themselves.

Unless their food sources were also larger.
And that's a problem even without tribes. A single giant would have to scour miles for food each day, probably eating about a horse a day. Where does all that food come from?

If they do form a society then they form a long distance society where each member may not see another for years at a time. A "Solitary" society.

Or, alternatively, one which uses nonstandard or efficient food production methods, combined with the grater amount of land their longer legs and stronger arms and such lets them plant, to produce more food.

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1. Intelligent creatures (by DF standards, or by some real-world definition of sentience, or even by saying "These are the smartest species on the planet") are pretty much universally social to varying extents.
2. Intelligent creatures who are loners don't really have much of a benefit from being so brilliant. Language? Pointless. Tools? Not a mark of intelligence (even a wasp uses tools!). Buildings? No better than a cave or a tree, and too much work for a solitary creature--assuming it even stays at one location at all. Therefore, they would be the arbitrary creation of a deity who gives his creations far more intellect than they could need.
3. Any species which can tolerate other members of its species long enough to mate, raise children*, and be raised as a child can tolerate other members of its species under duress.

1) Yes but that is real life.
2) Intelligence gives them the ability to vary their tactics and learn new skills as nessisary as well as communicate, if the language is learned, with lesser species if need be. As a tributary is a big boon.
3) In terms of mating a lot of the time it is done in a "High tide" so to speak where hormones override their other senses. As well they don't nessisarily raise their children for long periods of time or with any sort of care. Besides you said the key word "Tollerate".

1. Well excuse me for applying realism to the most realistic fantasy in history.
2. You don't need sentience for that. Any mammal can be smart or clever, but only humans (and maybe some of the [social] cetaceans or primates) are sentient.
3. If I can tolerate someone, I can work with them if I have to.

Actually it is very odd that you used the word Tollerate... As that implies that they won't form societies.

"Tolerate" means "can deal with" at its worst.
That's all I need. "Can."

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I'm saying that semimegabeasts aren't necessarily solitary.

Solitary only means that there is a constant need to be alone, not that teaming up and communication are impossible.

...I never said that this would be typical. It seems we're arguing about the same thing. WHY ARE WE ARGUING THEN?

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Their "Solo" status can be treated the same as goblins' heedless and constant attacks on dwarven fortresses, or the limitless revivals of zombies can be: "It's how it is now, but that doesn't mean it always will be."

Goblins constant and heedless attacks are because Goblins are part of a chaotic society that only functions because Goblins have a natural propensity to follow the strongest, they also do not share any love for one another (once again TOTAL lack of Altruism). It is their technology and level of organisation that makes less sense then when they show any sort of chaotic attacks.

If true, why would the goblins attack a settlement which is no threat to them instead of the other goblins, who are?
And there's also the zombies. And good regions (which we have actual Word of Toady that they'll change). And bad AI. And bugs. Basically, you can't expect something to be How It's Always Going to Be just because it is now.

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Simple. Ever hear of intelligent self-interest? It means you help others in exchange for help. Imagine a scenario where a goblin asks his brother for a bag so he can snatch. B might give A the bag for a number of reasons: Payment, repayment, owing a favor, or even just increasing the number of snatchers (leading to deflated prices for slaves). Regardless, it's probably worth a bag.

Wouldn't work because the goblins could never form social contracts and would ever be in the state of nature because they are too backstabbing (even his brother is just as likely to kill him for an extra meal), The brother would be just as likely to kill the brother after he returns tired from the trip so he can get all the reward. The only reasons goblins work together is they have an odd quirk where they will bow to the most powerful, no matter who that is. Suggesting they are a slave race created by someone.

You're making assumptions. What part of zero altruism implies maximum sadism? An intelligent person (and most dumb ones) realizes that working together is usually in your best interest.

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I think you must think that evolution can't apply to fantasy. I'm pretty sure it can, if you think some. (Which is probably a big problem about science in fantasy in general, but not for Toady.

Evolution tends not to apply strongly to fantasy because it requires HUGE sweeping swaths of hand waving to explain everything. To the extent that most fantasy settings (and not low fantasy) where evolution happens they explain the weirder creatures by saying "magic".
Which you are also opposed to.

I'm fine with magic where needed. When science is more applicable, use it.

Think about the Dragon and its size and try to imagine how something like that could survive. The logistics suggests that a dragon could only live by constantly being on the move as it will diminish its food supply in a short period of time.

Yet the mythology around Dragons suggests they live in a single cave with a large hoard of treasure, they are also often highly intelligent. Dragons simply could never exist.

Indeed. Which is why pretty much any dragon I write either has some unusual food source, or is paid tributes of food (as many dragons in legend are in various forms), or else are just smaller than elephants.

People lose the ability to lie and decieve, accept logic unconditionally and without personal offense, gain a stronger sense of empathy and understanding that extends beyond what's in front their noses and lastly become able of controlling their own reproduction as a species.
The world would become a far better place in an instant. Can't make a good future if the people in it are still a bunch of shaven primates.

The thread title clearly states we're to stick to the realm of possibility.

Humans release the zombie virus leading to an interesting apocalypse, failing to leave the world as a nuclear wasteland. Cats evolve to become the next rulers of planet Meow.

Among other issues, you clearly don't understand how evolution works.

Technology is adopted that gives humans ultimate pleasure/satisfaction. Systems are created to keep humans hooked into this and keep them alive, as well as creating and growing babies at a rate matching that of death from old age, breeding properly so as to avoid excessive evolution. Humans never do anything again; everyone is happier than ever before; no immortality.

I'm not sure if you understand evolution either. Why would it be bad?
Other than that, no major complaints.

We find a way around the second law of thermodynamics, P=NP, and we finish physics.

That's a good start.

"Um, that was...poorly though-out...not thought-out at all, actually..."