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DF Suggestions / Re: Semi-megabeasts having more influence, numbers and forming (usually small) civs.
« on: January 02, 2013, 10:35:18 pm »So now you've said that Rocs, one of the types of megabeasts, are unintelligent. One of the weak points of your argument was that dragons and the like are nothing more than beasts and would see anything but their own kind as prey, not potential allies. The only real way to counter that is to say that all the megabeasts are as smart as people, but if a Roc is just a big, stupid bird, why is a dragon or hydra any smarter?Not hydras, but dragons A. have a long history in fiction as being intelligent and B. have appeared in a ThreeToe story on equal footing with its rider. I'm guessing that the only reason Toady didn't give dragons the INTELLIGENT tag has to do with butchering sentients.
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I remember you yourself once claiming that DF is based on/inspired by folk legends. Well, in pretty much all legends, minotaurs act in the way I've described. Besides, if a minotaur is scared for its life, why would it build a huge labyrinth that declares their location and isn't at all subtle, rather than move around the countryside or just live in a discreet little hole like night creatures do?1. The original Minotaur was trapped in a labyrinth and fed people rather than raised like a normal kid. I'd also have major issues...
2. Not all minotaurs are savage monsters. (For instance, most D&D, to various extents, notably Krynn; and don't you dare say D&D isn't an influence on Dwarf Fortress.)
3. If I had to face a bunch of highly-trained adventurers, I'd rather do so in a place I made, controlled, and had the advantage in than wherever they found and ambushed me.
4. Everyone likes having a home.
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And as in for you saying you'd work with the bird man, half the megabeasts would probably just kill him on sight and be glad that they didn't have to leave their lair to find dinner that night. The other half, who are "attacked by people with sharp metal implements on a regular basis" would probably not trust this strange creature they've never seen before, and send it away or kill it. Since all the semis and megas are so different in so many ways, it makes no sense for them to pair up with any besides their own kind.The unintelligent creatures wouldn't be approached with offers and the others would be glad to be able to talk to someone who doesn't want to kill them. Besides, anyone can be pragmatic.
I'd argue it makes no sense to team up with another, lets assume for no reason they feel the same as humans and don't feel like a lot of the other creatures in the world, that have "instincts" to stay away form their own kind, lets assume smart = acting like humans.Hold on. I'm going to dissect the bits that make sense to me.
That makes no sense to me, nothing says "oh if they are smart they would team up" plenty of "smart" creatures in the real world are loners, any as smart as us? debatable, but the point was rather that if more creatures reached our level no0thing says they all would team up even if it "benefited them"
1. Humans are the only sentient lifeforms we know of. It could well be that we're unusually solitary for sentients.
2. Most of the other highly intelligent species--apes, dolphins, corvids--are also gregarious.
3. Name one civilized creature in DF right now that never gets along with other races. Goblins are routinely adopted by nations who conquer them and integrate captured children into their own society, and kobolds aren't really civilized so much as in possession of knives and probably basic organization. (Plus, they can't talk.) Elves, humans, and dwarves get along perfectly well outside of infrequent wars, until the player starts playing.
4. Intelligence implies a certain reliance on reason. Any reasoning being can determine that 2>1.
I doubt this somewhat. Besides, the mere fact that we get along shows that intelligent creatures of undefined psychology can't be assumed to be loners just because they live alone when there's no one else around.QuoteYou're making up assumptions again. These are creatures that could well be as intelligent as humans, who have no inherent problems working in groups anywhere from one to 1,000,000,000. (Problems do often arise in larger societies, but these are more due to organization or the individuals at the top than any inherent flaw in human psychology.) Why couldn't these, equally-intelligent creatures also work in small bands when necessity arose?It is because even though we are intelligent creatures the reason "WE" as humans team up is because we are pack animals who form tight groups limited by food supply. It is why living completely on our own, even for the most insular intrapersonal members of our species, is inherantly stressful and maddening.
Yes, they're solitary now, but it's still Alpha--the features haven't even been finished yet
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There are many types of animal formations and Semimegabeasts are populated almost entirely by intelligent creatures who are solitary creatures, or ones who tend to wish to be entirely alone and who could be happy never meeting another of their kind.B. S. Every creature has to meet with others of its kind eventually (at least to mate and be given birth to and raised), and most of the really intelligent animals are, in fact, gregarious.
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Thus a Ogre for example "could" team up but it would be a stressful situation as their kind are always drawn to solitude. It would be a temporary arrangement and not a pernament one.Ogres are shown IN THE RAWS to be perfectly fine in groups. This is without much of any real authority, past perhaps familial ties like wolves or strength. In the latter case, semi/megabeasts have a huge advantage in gaining ogre minions; in the former, a clever minotaur could either find (or perhaps make) some orphaned ogres, find some way to be a parental substitute, or just bully the ogres.
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There would never be a Ogre civilisation because ogres don't form groups and they could never fight off the stress from being around eachother in large groups long enough to actually form them. As well because they are solitary they are just as likely to harass and fight with one another as they are with lesser beings like humans.They don't form civilizations because they don't form civilizations. Your evidence is equal in strength to an argument that Australian Abigorigenes (sp?) can't get along in large groups. The only difference is that ogres are different species, but my point is that your evidence is inadequate.
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The community aspect of humans is very important and it isn't an intellectual aspect that we came to be an animal who forms into groups. It isn't something that a Aligator, for example, who became intelligent would be able to replicate.Well, intelligence doesn't spontaneously develop leaving all other psychological trait untouched. One sensible theory suggests that a major cause of humanity's intellect is that we were talking to each other and needed to out-wit each other, suggesting that our intelligence and complexity of our society increased each other in an autocatalytic reaction. Assuming similar forces in act with other species, and intelligent species do, in fact, have a much higher chance of becoming gregarious, and vice versa. And that's assuming that ogres, minotaurs, etc, didn't come from the exact same (gregarious) roots as humans. That would drastically increase how gregarious ogres, minotaurs, etc are.
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In fact in my oppinion the feature that needs to be implimented more then (Semi)megabeasts working together is the exact opposite, them working or fighting against eachother. Even within the same species.I'm not against this. Both should be present. So should semi/megabeasts should also be able to ignore each other despite being within two miles of each other. It just didn't come up before.
Dragons fighting for cave roosts for example.