Bay 12 Games Forum

"Well, I say we need a balance; there needs to be a way to get more energy, but we can't use it forever. Kind of like getting oil out of shale deposits; it's a more difficult, but finite crutch until we can work out a permanent solution."
My proposal is that we have a crutch of energy we can (with difficulty) draw from until we develop some form of order. Not enough that conflict would cease and we could create what we wished; but that we are not always at each-other's necks to perform actions.

I'm not sure if that would work. It would require prudence, and that's hard to get. Especially when trying to imprison someone who just warps your prison into more minions and such for himself, who wants to eat the whole universe.

Elliptic geometry is just another name for spherical geometry

Well, um...

Guys, I think we need an ooc thread for this ooc thread to post our insanity...

...You might be right.

if we grab it, we may die.

That's true for everything. We could have stepped on a pit trap, with spikes, covered in lethal poison on the way in.

Poke it; if nothing abnormal happens, grab it and head out.

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on December 28, 2012, 08:58:50 pm

Quote from: Jbg97 on December 28, 2012, 08:48:50 pm

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on December 28, 2012, 08:40:57 pm

Jbg97:
1. Is, not was.

It had to be used u at some point for it to be used up now. LOGIC.

I am taking it from one point in time, not the whole past. That would require me to be taking a four-dimensional chunk of energy rather than a three-dimensional one, which is an interpretation of my action that makes no sense and which I do not hold. LOGIC.

THAT MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. Your going to destroy an entire section of the past and have no consequences?!?!? YOU MAKE SO LITTLE SENSE IT HURTS. I THOUGHT I WAS THE GOD OF MADNESS, NOT YOU.

No, I'm NOT taking an entire section of the past, which is WHAT I WAS SAYING. You're attributing me with saying the exact opposite of what I said!

Quote

Quote

2. You're not Xantalos, and neither of you has that power as far as I've seen.

Your logic says he has that power.

Quote

No, yours does.

No, you can affect other universes, so Xantalos can too. Your logic, not mine.

Still the same universe, and again, the absolute limit would be a merger, not a switch, even if Xantalos COULD affect other universes.

Quote

Quote

3. I assume this goes to 2? Even if he can manipulate the borders of our universe, that doesn't mean he can touch any other, nor can he somehow force us to enter another. Make our universe merge with some other? Maybe, but I doubt it.

You said you can affect other universes by taking their power, why can Xantalos not affect other universes while you can?

Quote

I'm not affecting OTHER universes, I'm affecting OUR universe. Which branches off into another, unrelated to ours, when I fiddle with it.

You affect OUR universe's past, which somehow leaves OUR universe intact but creates ANOTHER universe in which the changes took place? Then that OTHER universe is OUR universe, not the other way around because when you affect OUR past your affect OUR universe, affecting OUR past doesn't affect ANOTHER universe. LOGIC.

No, because that's not how the many-worlds hypothesis works.
Let's examine it from the point of view of a popular paradox.
You travel backwards in time, but your Delorean hits your grandpa as it comes to a stop. There are now two (okay, more from average quantum events and such, but two for the purposes of this explanation) universes. In one, your grandfather was not hit with the Delorean, in the other he was. In this second universe you are never born, but this doesn't affect yours.
Now imagine that, instead of driving a luxury car through time, you just fired a bullet, staying right when you were. Two universes are still created, and the lack of your grandfather, your father, and you in the other universe doesn't affect you, because that's not in your universe.
Third, imagine that you didn't shoot Grandpappy, but instead kidnapped him without leaving the comfort of your own universe. The same thing happens, except your grandfather is alive in your universe, possibly twice. However, you are still okay.
Finally, imagine that you were grabbing some diffuse energy instead of your grandfather. That's what I'm doing.
How'd you put it? Oh, yes, LOGIC.

Quote

Quote

4. My logic is based on one simple point: Our universe follows the many-universe hypothesis of time. If this is not true, I will accept the consequences and admit that I was wrong. However, I have not been proven wrong, so I am not wrong. Yet, at least.

I should say the same.

Then please do so, because this is rather vague.

You should be the god of irritation.
[/quote]
...Okay, so if I understand what you're saying...if I should be the god of irritation, you're right, but if not, you'll admit you're wrong? Or am I taking you too literally?

[quote

Quote

5. Why not? You're assuming that the GM will assume I'll ruin his game by stopping everyone from unmaking everything. If he hadn't made the comment about people unmaking everything to repair their own creations, I wouldn't have done that. Inputting more energy into the system somehow is pretty much needed until we can get some kind of organization, which is improbable with the two "factions" plus neutrals as it is now.

No, I assume the GM will disallow it because it breaks the point of having kilos in the first place, a limit to what can be created. Also, it gives you unlimited power which is unfair to everyone else.

Again, rolls, which means that while there's less scarcity there is still scarcity. Also, I have pretty much no plans to abuse this power (if it works), or to block others from manipulating time so long as it's left intact. Finally, the GM should have probably thought twice before giving one guy control over space and time if a +1 or +2 is that vital.

How the fuck does anyone else manipulate time when you are the only person with the sphere of time?! Just admit your idea is bullshit and drop it.
[/quote]
I didn't have the sphere of time when I manipulated time. I don't have the sphere of hydrogen, or liquid, or dragons, or life, yet I created a lake of liquid hydrogen and some living dragons to fill it. Spheres aren't everything.

Quote

Quote

6. Which part, the many-universes stuff or the stuff-not-good-for-a-story stuff? In the former case, I would argue that it is not, in fact, bad for the story, for reasons about to be named; in the latter case, I would argue that everyone constantly tearing everything down to repair everything that was torn down would be a much worse story than one where more stuff to repair and create stuff was being created. And no, it's not an ass pull. It's an unused consequence of an aspect of my control over time that I hadn't thought of until I saw the GM's comment.

I think you having unlimited power is a much worse story than having gods conflict over the scarce power that exists.

Quote

Well, 1. It's not unlimited power, it's less limited power; 2. Nothing whatsoever stops you guys from messing with time (except probably the guy in the time prison); and 3. I still don't intend to abuse infinite power. Just, you know, use it to keep the time prison repaired, pay it to people, stuff like that. Like the government, but without the taxes...that's a crappy analogy.

Using infinite power to keep me trapped forever is a dick move man. You wont abuse the power? No, you wont abuse the power to fuck over EVERYONE ELSE, just me.

You kinda want to eat the universe. Besides, you're probably just going to corrupt the older energy in the Time Prison, so it's like there's two universes separated by a prison!
...The similarities to OotS grow...

Quote

Which one was that again?
Once the Omnicidalists were ejected and had their own, separate universe composed of the time prison to play in or whatever, I was going to suggest we pool all the energy into one planet and take turns making stuff, like the gods did in The Order of the Stick the second time.

So again, you're basically abusing the shit out of an ass pull power to fuck me over, remove me from the game, and give everyone else candy. DIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIICK

No, not remove from the game, just remove from the universe. Which you were trying to eat, destroying others' creations to replace with your own.

Oh, and you only needed to post that once. Unless it was a 504 error, in which case I apologize for that remark.

I NOW AM THE GOD OF GEOMETRIC SHAPES, YOU SHOULDNT HAVE DOEN THAT

My tetrahedron!

Quote from: javierpwn on December 28, 2012, 09:25:42 pm

Quote from: Jbg97 on December 28, 2012, 09:22:52 pm

Quote from: javierpwn on December 28, 2012, 09:22:03 pm

the dodecahedron is still a sphere, ON THE INSIDE!!!!!!!!


EDIT: BECAUSE THATS WHERE ITS COUNTS!!

TESSERACT BITCH

I NOW AM THE GOD OF GEOMETRIC SHAPES, YOU SHOULDNT HAVE DOEN THAT

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGOJmdxdjeA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE7YUEtpHoY

NO, YOU GET EUCLIDEAN GEOMETRY I GET ELLIPTIC GEOMETRY.

Can I have, um, spherical geometry?

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on December 27, 2012, 11:06:44 pm

Given how...use-impaired they are ATM, I'm not surprised there's only a few kinds.

Midnight Dye, found from some deep-cavern plant, would be neat.

I was under the impression that black wasn't used for objects because it is used as the background color so anything made black would be invisible to us.

Just use the display color iron and obsidian use.

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on December 28, 2012, 05:09:38 pm

I'm not sure how wild animals with special abilities would unbalance gameplay. I'll probably agree with you, but please elaborate.

Of course not all of them would unbalance the game, but some of them can.
Consider for instance the medusae and basilisks you mentioned. The moment your adventurer makes eye contact it's game over, next adventurer. And any fortress they visit would be completely powerless to stop them.
What i'm saying is that some legendary creatures just have abilities or origins that would completely ruin the game.

Notice two things about Medusa and the basilisks and such.
1. They're pretty much universally rare.
2. There are ways around them, like peripheral vision, mirrors, closing your eyes/blindfolding yourself when you approach where the gorgons live...

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on December 28, 2012, 05:09:38 pm

Assuming that wendigoes work like that in DF. And that wendigoism affects elves.

If Wendigoes wouldn't work like that they wouldn't be Wendigoes. And if elves are immune to wendigoism, who's to say kobolds, humans or dwarves aren't?

Well, first off: If elves aren't snobbishly superior PETA/hippies to the max, are they elves? They sure can be. DF's elves are different, why not its wendigoes? In addition, other games have wendigoes which aren't created by cannibalism (D&D and Shadowrun come to mind), so do they also not have wendigoes?
Finally, just make an explanation and apply its effects across the board. For instance, elves and goblins might be filled with natural spirits already, which renders them immune to wendigoism and certain other curses.

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on December 28, 2012, 05:09:38 pm

And how is this a bad thing? Okay, yeah, it requires work, but so did bees and turtles.

It would require a rewrite of the animal brain to account for different hunting tactics, including stalking, preying and, in Ahuizotl's case, luring them towards water. And i'm sure a brain upgrade like that is already planned for some time in the future, but it shouldn't be moved to next week just because someone wants to see an Ahuizotl lure people to a pond and drown them.

I personally don't think that it should be, quote, "moved to next week." However, it will be included eventually. As I don't see any chance of such a drive being done "next week" and put on the top priority, all I can see that doing is making sure that AI improvements of various kinds happen slightly sooner.

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on December 28, 2012, 05:09:38 pm

Besides, a lot of mythical creatures could work a lot like each other or wild animals, especially with a little artistic license.

If you apply an "artistic license" to legendary creatures they wouldn't be the creatures from the legends anymore. A Gorgon wouldn't be a Gorgon if it couldn't petrify people and a Wendigo wouldn't be a Wendigo if it didn't have it's origin in cannibalism. They would just be unusual night trolls.

Well, you can argue the same about everything. Elves are cannibals? They're just tall gnomes. Dragons don't fly? They're just weird titans. Apes can't use crude tools? They're just semi-erect deer.

A good idea, but I'd like toady to get a wider range of cool abilities for random creations rather then just creatures, though i too would appreciate seeing the DF twist on them. This should wait until semi and megabeasts actually have a brain to start with, otherwise it rather undoes their legend.

Agreed. And, as mentioned in the OP, a benefit of this is that development would be stimulated in the area of creature abilities.

Well, if goblins didn't eat it would easily explain where they get all those soldiers, no?

I admit that goblins having supply lines could be fun, so could goblins who never starve.

I've actually countered that argument about not adding goblin metabolism back in; there IS worldgen hunting now, which means carnivorous races CAN live.

Goblins dying easily doesn't imply that they aren't demonic in some subtle way. Heck, a bunch of demons are just flesh-and-blood that happens to be ginormous.

Anything else I missed?

Well, I say we need a balance; there needs to be a way to get more energy, but we can't use it forever. Kind of like getting oil out of shale deposits; it's a more difficult, but finite crutch until we can work out a permanent solution.

Edit: my humble final submission.

Thanks. I'd just like to point out that A. getting energy like that requires rolls, most likely, and B. once we run out we're likely in about the same boat...

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on December 28, 2012, 08:40:57 pm

Jbg97:
1. Is, not was.

It had to be used u at some point for it to be used up now. LOGIC.

I am taking it from one point in time, not the whole past. That would require me to be taking a four-dimensional chunk of energy rather than a three-dimensional one, which is an interpretation of my action that makes no sense and which I do not hold. LOGIC.

Quote

2. You're not Xantalos, and neither of you has that power as far as I've seen.

Your logic says he has that power.

No, yours does.

Quote

3. I assume this goes to 2? Even if he can manipulate the borders of our universe, that doesn't mean he can touch any other, nor can he somehow force us to enter another. Make our universe merge with some other? Maybe, but I doubt it.

You said you can affect other universes by taking their power, why can Xantalos not affect other universes while you can?

I'm not affecting OTHER universes, I'm affecting OUR universe. Which branches off into another, unrelated to ours, when I fiddle with it.

Quote

4. My logic is based on one simple point: Our universe follows the many-universe hypothesis of time. If this is not true, I will accept the consequences and admit that I was wrong. However, I have not been proven wrong, so I am not wrong. Yet, at least.

I should say the same.

Then please do so, because this is rather vague.

Quote

5. Why not? You're assuming that the GM will assume I'll ruin his game by stopping everyone from unmaking everything. If he hadn't made the comment about people unmaking everything to repair their own creations, I wouldn't have done that. Inputting more energy into the system somehow is pretty much needed until we can get some kind of organization, which is improbable with the two "factions" plus neutrals as it is now.

No, I assume the GM will disallow it because it breaks the point of having kilos in the first place, a limit to what can be created. Also, it gives you unlimited power which is unfair to everyone else.

Again, rolls, which means that while there's less scarcity there is still scarcity. Also, I have pretty much no plans to abuse this power (if it works), or to block others from manipulating time so long as it's left intact. Finally, the GM should have probably thought twice before giving one guy control over space and time if a +1 or +2 is that vital.

Quote

6. Which part, the many-universes stuff or the stuff-not-good-for-a-story stuff? In the former case, I would argue that it is not, in fact, bad for the story, for reasons about to be named; in the latter case, I would argue that everyone constantly tearing everything down to repair everything that was torn down would be a much worse story than one where more stuff to repair and create stuff was being created. And no, it's not an ass pull. It's an unused consequence of an aspect of my control over time that I hadn't thought of until I saw the GM's comment.

I think you having unlimited power is a much worse story than having gods conflict over the scarce power that exists.

Well, 1. It's not unlimited power, it's less limited power; 2. Nothing whatsoever stops you guys from messing with time (except probably the guy in the time prison); and 3. I still don't intend to abuse infinite power. Just, you know, use it to keep the time prison repaired, pay it to people, stuff like that. Like the government, but without the taxes...that's a crappy analogy.

...If I could interrupt you for a second? Do you think my proposal could be a sound solution? There will still be driving conflict, but we don't have to face the vicious cycle of always being at each-other's necks.

Which one was that again?
Once the Omnicidalists were ejected and had their own, separate universe composed of the time prison to play in or whatever, I was going to suggest we pool all the energy into one planet and take turns making stuff, like the gods did in The Order of the Stick the second time.