Bay 12 Games Forum

Indeed. And if not, it's your fault for not building the wall keeping the goblins out until the siege came!

I'll take turn 3!
Now to read the thread...

EDIT: I'll take a...hm, what useful professions haven't been taken yet?...A jeweler. Call it GreatWyrmDiamond. GWD's goal is to make a tower that can't be destroyed by someone dying in it! Can you make diamond blocks yet in this mod?

Why did they even build that thing? It's unusually stupid, even for a Springfielder.

On topis: A floodfill thingy would be nice, but it's not needed to be done automatically.

It looks like tents are in, in some form. Are they able to be created in fort mode? ...To the Future of the Fortress thread!

As to pools and gyms: How many of you like to go to the gym, and how many of you would like to swim in dank, grimy water with stubby limbs, a stout torso, and no idea of how to swim? I imagine that that would fall under torture, and thus be against dwarven ethics. (I'm not sure how serious I was there, which kinda disturbs me...)

Here's a question: Are you paying the Mountainhomes to send you someone and then you just do what you want with him/her; or do you need to keep paying to keep the dwarf around; or is the dwarf expecting at least, say, a decent bedrom and a private office and workshop or something?

@Wyrm- What if we GTA that shit by making it where the demons that gain "faith" gains the respect of the others, thus allowing it to roam with bigger squads? It would be like how a lot of people believe in the Devil, which increases his status among his fellow demons. Or have it where the demons possess the followers when the "faith" weakens in an attempt to stay alive (and causing obvious Fun in the process).

...Where are there demons in Drand Theft Auto? I've never played any of the games, so maybe I just missed something, but...meh.
Demons are usually not the honorable sort. There's exceptions, but if they're demons, there should still be a lot of envy among the demonic community. If a demon with no cult could take the prayers from one with a cult, it probably would.

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on July 23, 2012, 05:52:25 pm

Quote from: Andeerz on July 23, 2012, 05:22:18 am

The only definition of combat my suggestion would need is any situation where there is a combat action initiated (like a detected pathing action made by an entity with the intention of initiating an attack, or any instance of targeting for attack).  Combat would end after a few ticks with no combat actions.  As far as I can think right now, there wouldn't need to be any more specific a definition than that.

Well, that might work...I'm still doubtful about if time slowing down every time something attacked something else would be good, but at least you've got something workable.

Quote from: Silverionmox on July 23, 2012, 06:08:16 am

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on July 22, 2012, 09:46:44 am

Quote from: Silverionmox on July 22, 2012, 05:36:02 am

It is a clear fact that the dwarves don't have 30 lunches and naps per month, so it's obvious that there's some kind of compression/abstraction going on already[1]. With 12 minutes to move a tile, a dwarf would need an hour just to walk around a table[2]. It becomes clear that you can't have any complex combat manoeuvres with that speed[3].

1. So? Why should dwarves even have circadium rhythms based on the rising and setting of a sun that they almost never see?
2. 48 minutes =/= 1 hour, and that's assuming they don't just walk over the table...and that tiles are table-sized...and that you're ignoring various issues with tile-based movement...
3. Why not? Personally, I like the way it is now. IRL, battles (or at least sieges) could last for days, and the current system allows even little skirmishes to feel epic, not to mention you can easily get through the fort's first year in a couple hours, tops (assuming real life doesn't intervene too much...) Personally, little details like "three meals a solar day" and "fights last only a few minutes" aren't worth taking 72x as long to get anywhen, so I'd probably (almost?) never willingly use the A-M speed.

1. It's not a deliberate design choice, but a way to cope with the notion that it's not desireable to model every breakfast for gameplay reasons. Elves and humans run on the same system, and it can't be ignored there either. In any case that's just an obvious way to see that time is already compressed in fortress mode; another would be the lack of day and night.

Alright, so instead you want to model every breakfast. Intriguing.
Sorry if this is misrepresenting your ideas.

Just do it right from the first time, then you don't need to be sorry.

As you're not complaining about how I am interpreting your ideas, I must have been right.

Quote from: GWG

Quote from: S

2. Assuming a chair included, both of which are tile-sized in the game, and tile-based movement is the only thing available. But alright, let's say "a quick walk around a 3*3 bedroom", to check the engravings for example: that would take 96 minutes.

First off, saying that "The way movement is tracked in the game proves that it takes an hour to walk around a table" (your quote, more or less, and also off by 12 minutes) is like saying that "The way falling is tracked in the game proves that goblins fall a story, stop, fall another story, and so on until they hit the ground and explode." Second off, alright, maybe walking around a bedroom in an hour and a half is unreasonable, but it never ruins immersion for me. And figuring out a good "amount of time it should take" more or less requires figuring out how big a tile is. So how big do you think a tile is?

(Off? Assuming a chair included, I said) First, yes, that's what happens with the goblin. Not a problem when all we care for is the resulting meatpile, but it starts to be a problem when timing starts to matter. Second, that's flexible, as we know.. architecture seems to be a more solid point of reference to detect oddities, it seems. But in the end, what matters for the timing issue is that we're able to coordinate fortress and outside world interaction, maybe gaining the ability to use nightfall etc. in fortess mode as a side effect.

Chair included is six tiles, which is an hour and 12 minutes, which is still not an hour. And the goblins falling thing is just an analogy, pointing out that you're abusing the tile-based nature of movement to make a point. And if we don't have a clue about how big tiles are, then what's the point of arguing about how fast dwarves should move over them? Finally, what makes you think that we need to accelerate fortress mode time whenever a messenger pokes his head into our map in order to get time synchronised right?

Quote from: GWG

Quote from: S

3. The situation as it is has been perfectly adequate up till now, but only because interaction with the outside world was negligible. We only got one caravan per season, mostly irrelevant diplomat meetings and invasions that came like clockwork and were randomly generated on the spot. If we are to have as much interaction with the outside world as Toady intends, the synchronisation of fortress and overland actions needs to be implemented adequately. He was aware of the potential problems it would cause years ago already.

How, exactly, is this an issue again? A messenger comes, takes [maybe 100 tiles from edge to fort, times 12 minutes per tile] about a day for a messenger to go from "Hey! There's a messenger out there!" to "Excuse me, sir, but our village is under attack," assuming no "running or jogging for faster movement" thing gets implemented. Seems reasonable. Yeah, getting the militia organized enough to go anywhere could currently take a week, but that's a separate problem that needs to be solved. Your idea is roughly akin to solving the issue of a leaky rook by putting several layers of cloth over the spot on your roof--sure, there isn't a leaky roof anymore, but there's more problems now, and you'll need to get that leak fixed sooner or later anyways.

The messenger already has traveled time overland... In any case, taking a day to deliver an emergency message from the driveway to the office is not acceptable. The village is burned down and the inhabitants roasted by that time. If someone important is kidnapped and you send a rescue party after, then you want them to leave the same hour, not when the track is cold.

First off: "The messenger has taken time to travel over land." Brilliant idea: Chop a day off travel-time. There, problem solved, no need to screw up the nice system we have working now. And "from the driveway to the office?" More like "from the edge of what we arbitrarily consider our settlement, even though nothing except the occasional woodcutter or hunter ever goes there, to the fortress" in a day.

Getting the dwarves better at organizing has its limits. For instance, preparing will always involve walking from place to place to pick up items. At 12 minutes/square, that will inevitably take a long time in fortress mode. "Making dwarves better at organizing" is like having bigger buckets to put under the leaky roof: you get better at compensating for the problem, but you don't adress it at the core. The core of the problem is time, actions, the fact that fortress mode dwarves can't move as fast as in overland mode because that's necesarry to give the impression of a bustling settlement and to fast-forward the tedium of dwarves doing menial labor. So I solve the problem where it's caused: I give time-sensitive tasks more time to be resolved, while letting the rest of the dwarves do their things at their normal pace.

The issue, at its core, is that dwarves suck at getting organized. That's like fixing the roof. How fast to military actions get organized IRL? Just informing the soldiers takes time. Remove the annoying little issue of needing someone to spend valuable dwarf-time to send a message to the whole militia and having the message reach the militia as fast as your orders do would be an acceptable break from reality for me.

The biggest problem here is that we're each trying to solve a problem that the other thinks doesn't exist. I want to solve the problem of dwarves being lazy and bad at self-organization; you want to solve the issues of dwarves moving at a slow, but playable, speed. I point out that we can fold some stuff into the simulation and just let it all cancel itself out; you want every painstaking detail to be covered, and don't mind if dwarves suck at organization. Now let's see you put your spin on "Dwarves moving at adventure mode speeds, slowing down the fort, is more important than dwarves acting rationally," which is how I see what you're arguing for.

Let the record show that I do not give so much as a crundle dropping about if dwarf-mode speed matches up with adventure-mode speed. Maybe I'll care once you can switch between the two freely, but you can't now, and who knows what the eventual game model will be like when that happens? I like an idea I heard someone have, which basically has you start out as a single dwarf/elf/human/whatever and either adventure or gather up supplies and people for an expedition. Once we can actually switch between adventure and fortress mode, I might actually care about making fortress mode run on both. Until then, making the game run 72x slower in realtime:dwarftime whenever a messenger shows up (impossible to predict), combat occurs (hard to predict, thanks to ambushes, thieves, wild animals, and the fact that nothing wanting to attack your fort gives you a two-weeks notice--nor should it--and the fact that some forts have nigh-constant combat from something like a militia training on small animals [or maybe sparring], a forgotten beast being attacked by a subterranean animalfolk tribe, or who-knows-what), or whatever else runs best on adventure-mode time (COMPLETELY unpredictable).

Quote from: Phlum on July 22, 2012, 07:28:18 am

...
I'm reading your escaped lunatic description, might want to make a few posts before starting a thread. People don't take lunatics seiriously.

I'd say it's sad that people actually even check what "rank" posters have. If the suggestion is valid does it really matter how many posts they have made before? And the few people around here that actyally aren't worth taking seriously are those that've spammed so much they're way past the escaped lunatic stage anyhow. Sorry for the off-topic, but stuff like this just really pisses me off :>

I don't, if it matters. I treat everyone with the respect their inteligence, experience, and sanity as shown through their posts deserve.

Quote from: Manveru Taurënér on July 23, 2012, 11:42:57 am

Quote from: Phlum on July 22, 2012, 07:28:18 am

...
I'm reading your escaped lunatic description, might want to make a few posts before starting a thread. People don't take lunatics seiriously.

I'd say it's sad that people actually even check what "rank" posters have. If the suggestion is valid does it really matter how many posts they have made before? And the few people around here that actyally aren't worth taking seriously are those that've spammed so much they're way past the escaped lunatic stage anyhow. Sorry for the off-topic, but stuff like this just really pisses me off :>

This board has a problem with threads started by spambots.

They tend to post ads, not suggestions.