Bay 12 Games Forum

Marx, I like where this is getting at!!!

Quote from: Karl_Marx on July 22, 2012, 09:39:52 am

One should look at the factors that prohibits class struggle. Oppression, ignorance or lack of hierarchy(eliminating need for class struggle). Not the historical period.

Don't forget cost of labor which would have a huge impact on the bargaining power of the common person!    ...which I'd imagine would play into the entire economy arc thing...

Indeed. Class struggle requires class, which requires a distribution of wealth. Before we can worry about class struggles, there need to be miserly miners who work all day and get the pay as well as soapers who turn to crime and menial jobs to feed themselves. Then...let the class struggles begin. (The upper classes get an edge for often carrying around picks.)

Dwarves don't do well if their sock has been moved before they can move it. Thankfully, this only ever arises with construction jobs--other jobs don't disturb the various thingies.

Also, one exclamation point per sentence is usually sufficient.

Quote from: 10ebbor10 on July 23, 2012, 01:59:40 am

(Biology doesn't work that way)

Plants can use any source of light IRL to grow, be that the sun, the lightbulb or indeed lava if it was hot enough to produce that much light.

Yeah, but being put in a glass pipe won't do it.

-major snip-

Good ideas here. Sadly, I can't think of much to add.

The only definition of combat my suggestion would need is any situation where there is a combat action initiated (like a detected pathing action made by an entity with the intention of initiating an attack, or any instance of targeting for attack).  Combat would end after a few ticks with no combat actions.  As far as I can think right now, there wouldn't need to be any more specific a definition than that.

Well, that might work...I'm still doubtful about if time slowing down every time something attacked something else would be good, but at least you've got something workable.

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on July 22, 2012, 09:46:44 am

Quote from: Silverionmox on July 22, 2012, 05:36:02 am

It is a clear fact that the dwarves don't have 30 lunches and naps per month, so it's obvious that there's some kind of compression/abstraction going on already[1]. With 12 minutes to move a tile, a dwarf would need an hour just to walk around a table[2]. It becomes clear that you can't have any complex combat manoeuvres with that speed[3].

1. So? Why should dwarves even have circadium rhythms based on the rising and setting of a sun that they almost never see?
2. 48 minutes =/= 1 hour, and that's assuming they don't just walk over the table...and that tiles are table-sized...and that you're ignoring various issues with tile-based movement...
3. Why not? Personally, I like the way it is now. IRL, battles (or at least sieges) could last for days, and the current system allows even little skirmishes to feel epic, not to mention you can easily get through the fort's first year in a couple hours, tops (assuming real life doesn't intervene too much...) Personally, little details like "three meals a solar day" and "fights last only a few minutes" aren't worth taking 72x as long to get anywhen, so I'd probably (almost?) never willingly use the A-M speed.

1. It's not a deliberate design choice, but a way to cope with the notion that it's not desireable to model every breakfast for gameplay reasons. Elves and humans run on the same system, and it can't be ignored there either. In any case that's just an obvious way to see that time is already compressed in fortress mode; another would be the lack of day and night.

Alright, so instead you want to model every breakfast. Intriguing.
Sorry if this is misrepresenting your ideas.

2. Assuming a chair included, both of which are tile-sized in the game, and tile-based movement is the only thing available. But alright, let's say "a quick walk around a 3*3 bedroom", to check the engravings for example: that would take 96 minutes.

First off, saying that "The way movement is tracked in the game proves that it takes an hour to walk around a table" (your quote, more or less, and also off by 12 minutes) is like saying that "The way falling is tracked in the game proves that goblins fall a story, stop, fall another story, and so on until they hit the ground and explode." Second off, alright, maybe walking around a bedroom in an hour and a half is unreasonable, but it never ruins immersion for me. And figuring out a good "amount of time it should take" more or less requires figuring out how big a tile is. So how big do you think a tile is?

3. The situation as it is has been perfectly adequate up till now, but only because interaction with the outside world was negligible. We only got one caravan per season, mostly irrelevant diplomat meetings and invasions that came like clockwork and were randomly generated on the spot. If we are to have as much interaction with the outside world as Toady intends, the synchronisation of fortress and overland actions needs to be implemented adequately. He was aware of the potential problems it would cause years ago already.

How, exactly, is this an issue again? A messenger comes, takes [maybe 100 tiles from edge to fort, times 12 minutes per tile] about a day for a messenger to go from "Hey! There's a messenger out there!" to "Excuse me, sir, but our village is under attack," assuming no "running or jogging for faster movement" thing gets implemented. Seems reasonable. Yeah, getting the militia organized enough to go anywhere could currently take a week, but that's a separate problem that needs to be solved. Your idea is roughly akin to solving the issue of a leaky rook by putting several layers of cloth over the spot on your roof--sure, there isn't a leaky roof anymore, but there's more problems now, and you'll need to get that leak fixed sooner or later anyways.

The current vampires are a placeholder. Toady intends to make them procedurally generated.

Yeah. I made allusions to this earlier, but meh, I didn't go very far into it. I figured most people around this subforum had heard me say that, since I do so every time vampires come up.

As for detectives, isn't that what the Sherrif does now? It might be a bit better if he/she would ask around , looking for alibies and such, so that for every crime you get way more hints and such. Then the game can screw you over by having people lie because of grudges/being the vampire.

Kinda. I think (I haven't had a real crime yet) that the crime is reported, and then the sheriff knows what all the witnesses said, and then the player makes a decision. At some point, ideally before crime starts becoming an issue, Toady should add stuff like snooping about, so that you have testimonies, evidence, what the CMD/sheriff/etc think the evidence means, and THEN you could convict someone. Ideally this would work for stupid noble stuff, too. "WHO brought the platinum earring to the depot?"

Hello,
historically  old boats don't have metal.   metal as hardware is added when metal is discovered, and not in form of "screws/nails".  appears in rope based accessory.  I would suggest a few brass/bronzes  'ship bells and steering wheels' bronze the most. rest is probably equivilant to one or two bars of iron/copper.

Problem is, metal sinks.

Materials,  wood, Cloth is used (sails), sailors tend to wear same kind of clothing... usually cotton or canvas.

tools are common, adze/axe, hammers, saw, pails weapons: clubs, pikes, harpoons, and knives

they even have special "cooking plate" for hot foods. so a real pot or two is sensible. and uses between 1 to 2 stone blocks.

Unless this stuff sinks.

food: with sea faring, they look at food spoilage, average voyage in ancient time is about two to four weeks. so grains keeps better than flour, so grains will be favored over flour, wine is favored (holds well, and has "vitamins" not 100%). I am aware they  take fewest in meat, (spoils the fastest), and they do occasional fishing. They do take thousands gallons (or liters) of water.

Couldn't/Didn't they salt meat?

animals:  varies, depending on original ship mission; usually have dogs (least or fewest), cats (probably 1 or 2), and lots of rats. is occasional added staple, chickens (behaves well in cages adn use up grains fast).

Also something to simulate the semi-tame animals one would expect to find on an island but which won't spawn, like Robinson Crusoe's goats.

(for sailors profession),  usually common for knife fighters, pole users, doubt on swimmers, usually have doctors (and learns art fast), cooks.  Ship do stop by some spots once in a while to forage.

Swimming is mostly to justify survival, knives can't be used by dwarves (or at least aren't), pther stuff makes sense.

What do you guys think about this Style of embark when it comes to mods? I imagine having one for the underhive mod would be cool. But also, having muskets modded in is a must.

Hm...Well, getting the right island will be tough.

Its too cliche, the way Toady has it.

How so?

And not giving Vampires bite-like combat attributes in combat logs, or special, supernatural physics, just sorta ruins the myth for me. With Vampires always inherently evil, and always after Dwarf blood, to me just fails to portray their truly sinister lineage.  Way this game portrays Vampires has Count Dracula rolling over in his crypt.

Vampires are supernaturally strong and (IIRC) tough, and bite just as much as other dwarves. Which, seeing as their teeth only grow whilst feeding, is how it should be. The vampires will be sinister once there's a good way to MAKE them sinister, for now settle for them being tough and hard to identify.

For me it would be more funner, if I were asked to uncovered who the Vampire Hunter was that slew the Vampire.  Having Vampires be of both alignments, pro and con.  And only having the Justice system intervene in the twilight fashion, or noninterference, until random parameters were met.  Whatever they were, is up to the designer.

Aside from the apparent suggestion of making DF vamps Twilightier...Vampires hunting other vampires should go in once vampires have individual goals past standard vampiric goals, which will wait until after dwarves also have individual goals.

[Dwarf_Entity] used a wooden training spear in the (a burial receptacle) to permanently destroy a [Vampire_Entity]'s heart.
[Dwarf_Entity] used a fire in the (unnamed bedroom) to temporarily disintegrate a [Vampire_Entity]'s entire body.
[Dwarf_Entity] used a water in (central swamp) to temporarily drowned a [Vampire_Entity]'s entire body.
[Dwarf_Entity] used a sunlight and a cage in (animal stockpile #24) to permanently overcook a [Vampire_Entity]'s entire body.

...

Either give the [Dwarf_Entity] a gift or a hammering, if the target, [Vampire_Entity] was helping or hurting the fortress...

The one thing so far I fully agree with!

An always evil Vampire leaves me kind of sour, so I tend to turn the curses off.  Do whatever you want, but I like the idea of adding more clues, as without them, its like watching the game play itself, indirectly, instead of me enjoying playing it, directly.  Knutor

Always evil vampires...? Aside from sometimes feeding on or killing dwarves and not needing stuff like food and drink, vampires are just like any other dwarf. Again, always evil vampires shpuld usually be avoided, but there should be evil vampires, as well as kind vampires, pragmatic vampires, ashamed vampires, scheming vampires, self-loathing vampires...

I can see a dwarf with pick- or hook-hands being able to clumsily feed himself, and haul a few kinds of items. The latter wouldn't make sense for all weapons, though, so either some kind of HOOKED tag would need to be implemented or hauling would need to be impossible with weapon-hands (although both magical hands and perhaps special hook-hands designed for replacing hands would be able to grasp).
As for replacing legs: If you use a peg-leg or equivalent, the dwarf would be slowed and knocked down more easily; replacing both legs would lead to the dwarf being barely able to walk; and replacing them with a minecart (or, more likely, a specially-made slab with wheels) would limit movement to fairly smooth floors and ramps (not stairs, not boulders, possibly not pebbles, not heavily-cluttered squares), and might even be restricted to moving on rails (unless another dwarf is helping). On the bright side, a wheeled dwarf would be really hard to knock down, although they should probably move something like an adventurer scooting around in a minecart they found.
Replacing feet should be easy, but if you lose a head you're SOL.
You could probably surgically attach bits of armor or at least metal plates and leather patches, for a neat Robodorf thing, but this would cause periodic pain and reduce agility.
Overall, all of this stuff could become infected over time, and in a worst-case scenario cause the tissue underneath to necroses. To avoid such complications, periodic medical treatment is needed. Also, the parts could wear out and break eventually (probably in the same way everything else will), or perhaps snap off through severe force (severing the part but leaving it re-attachable). This isn't too bad if your miner's pick-hand breaks off and he needs to go get a new one from the mechanic, smith, and surgeon,. but what if Urist McRobodorf's attached armor or something breaks off in the middle of battle?

This is all aside from such options as mad science, magical prosthetics, stitching on a dead limb and animating it as a zombie (actually, that's probably a bad option for non-vampires), magical healing, etc.