Bay 12 Games Forum

Is it something we can help with?

Indeed. Also, it's more Fun this way, and it gives folks like me more time to think and plan.

If we're just tossing random stuff in, how about this bit, allegedly-steampunk-but-not-even-remotely-steamy snail-car-thing I saw on Modern Marvels? It's called the Golden Mean, and it breathes fire out of its eyestalks.

Well, the z-level dodging is a bug, so that will be fixed in time.

Beat me to it.
Flying creatures and creatures on up-ramps (or adjacent to down-ramps or perhaps small ledges) should be able to change z-levels whilst dodging, but I digress.

About your roof suggestion... It seems too unrealistic for me. True, some methods of building in DF aren't exactly lifelike, e.g. building a staircase that's only supported from above; but I'm fairly sure that this will be impossible once we have rope ladders in the game.
A different non-sensical building thing is that (almost) every building is constructed with only one stone block. That's a simplification, because hauling a realistic amount of stones to build a ramp would be extremely annoying. Fortresses would be dominated by huge piles of bricks, and blocks as they are are already bad enough for the FPS.

The blocks are presumably a bunch of blocks, as designated by the name "blocks." Stones are probably a mix of a couple big boulders and a bunch of rubble.

So, to summarize so far: in my experience, if some aspect of Dwarf Fortress isn't very realistic, it's either because a more authentic way hasn't been implemented yet (it's a placeholder) or because it wouldn't be fun to play it (it's a simplification).

Well-put.

As you said, building roofs from below isn't too realistic. In fact, it's pretty much unimaginable, especially for short dwarfs and their stubby arms. Let's see if it would improve the game as a simplification of a real-world method.
If you want to build a roof in Dwarf Fortress right now, you build a ramp/staircase and designate the floors.

Indeed. Some way to make this clearer, and/or ladders (which could be put up faster than stairs or ramps) would help, though.

If your suggestion were to be implemented, we'd just skip the ramp/staircase part and designate the roof. So, effectively, you wouldn't have to build a ramp and your dwarfs were less exposed and less likely to fall.

Indeed.

And that's the problem that I have with your suggestion: it sacrifices too much realism for too little improvement. Building a ramp is trivial; and removing it doesn't make the process significantly easier.

Yeah, I agree.

About dwarves starting in the middle and flattening themselves: Dwarves don't build unsupported constructions now (except for the ones they think will be supported by bridges, but that's another bug), so why would they in the future?

Putting it into the raws would be best, as it would allow pretty much all of these ideas to be implemented by a dedicated modder. Even the quality-level one could kinda be; you'd just need to care enough to test and see which skill levels are just " Mason," which are "- Mason," and so forth.

Yeah, that second way seems good. And I think I should indeed turn off immigrants, since they could bring some unwanted metal stuff. I doubt it's very elfish, if I cut down trees constantly and such. Regarding the warriors' equipment, what weapons can you make/buy that are made of wood? Might get lucky with strange moods (which will no doubt prove extremely FUN without metals), but do elves trade wooden spears (not training, the actual fighting spear)? Otherwise I guess I'll have to rely on crossbows.

Elven woodcraft is as transcendant as dwarven metalcraft. They craft wooden spears and swords with edges as sharp as a dwarf's weapon, but without requiring any fuel. The drawback is that wooden weapons suck.

Nope, when they're in the up position, they damage anyhting that drops from high enough.

Also, they're built in the up position.

To be on the safe side, butcher the giraffes. That way, you'll have giraffe leather and stuff, and no worries about feeding them. Next time, try war yaks.

Personally, I like magma forges. I don't find a lot of coal, and prefer to use wood for things like beds and bins and stuff.

Quote from: 10ebbor10 on June 15, 2012, 11:25:25 am

Which, as I said before, is the point of them. It's to make dwarf fortress more a simulation, and less a game with arbitrary rules.

The names aren't derived from the simulation, they're just arbitrary labels with no cause or effect otherwise. I would like the dwarves to take up hobbies and then have "Urist is a dabbling potter" in their profile.

I'd say you were missing his pont, but that would require me to understand what yours is. Are you saying that the simulation should not simulate the differences between master and merely proficient skill levels, or...what?

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It's in fact a replacement for gradual learning. The skill levels are lying so close toghether that people can't easily see the difference between them, making an arbitrary level up mechanic in a gradual learning curve (for the dwarves, not the humans).

It's still an arbitrary level up mechanic in a fancy package. A misapplied one, IMO, because these terms have real concepts behind them which make them unsuitable for a straight hierarchic ladder of labels, and could be developed in so much more.

It's not a perfect system, but many (most?) of the skill levels do actually apply to a more-or-less linear increase in skill, from "just starting" to "capable" to "among the best in the field."

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I'm content with knowing that my dwarves are currently proficient in their skill, and that dabbling is bad and master good.

Great, then why do you need more labels than half a dozen?

Because there are differences between proficient and talented, and when I want the best possible crafts I turn to my talented crafters over the merely proficient!

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Would you like a mechanic where dwarves suddenly level up, becoming noticeably better in just one day, for me that would break of a bit of the immersion.

The speed of leveling was never under discussion in this thread, merely the labeling. See it as graduating. At least then every level up is meaningful, now it's just administration.

Huh? That wasn't about the speed, it was about a sudden jump (like from only making -goods- to only making +goods+ after a single craft giving them one more point of XP).

Putting in the raws is good enough, but I'm pretty sure no one will miss them if we discard 3/4 of the levels and put the terms to good use in other ways.

What am I, chopped liver? What is 10ebbor10, chopped pancreas? What is everyone else who has disagreed with you, other chopped organs from the digestive and/or endocrine system?