Bay 12 Games Forum

Why not use quality modifiers?
XXMinerXX
XMinerX
xMinerx
Miner
-Miner-
+Miner+
*Miner*
≡Miner≡
☼Miner☼

That's nine, we need 15; so we could do this:
Novice Miner
-Novice Miner-
+Novice Miner+
*Novice Miner*
≡Novice Miner≡
☼Novice Miner☼

Miner
-Miner-
+Miner+
*Miner*
≡Miner≡
☼Miner☼

Master Miner
-Master Miner-
+Master Miner+
*Master Miner*
≡Master Miner≡
☼Master Miner☼

And for legendaries, a unique name:
"Urist McMiner the Pick of Volcanoes, Legendary Miner"

Alright, that makes 22 ranks - maybe some could be left out...

First off, adding ranks isn't a bad thing.
Second off, titles for legendary dwarves would be uniquely awesome, and make them feel more like legends.
Third off...I'm not trying to criticise, but you're missing the point of the guy who was originally suggesting use of quality modifiers in skill. His (Her? Could be. This is the internet) idea was that the median quality of goods produced would be the quality level. Maybe something like that could be used, if we divorced it from product quality; -/+/* skill-users of various skill levels (-novice-, +novice+, *novice*, -good-, +good+, etc), but I'd prefer that this kind of stuff be added as an init option. That way, everyone could have or eat whatever flavor of cake they desire.

Quote from: GreatWyrmGold on June 11, 2012, 01:22:01 pm

Right now, I'm guessing it's something like "insufficient knowledge of chemistry and no reason to think that it would be any use at all, plus a lack of spare people and minerals to spend on pointless experiments."

Uh...Dwarves have a RIDICULOUSLY large amount of resources and spare people.

That's an issue that will probably be fixed at some point.
And, again, why would they think that mixing rock salt with coal and heat would do anything? You'd think they'd get sick of trying stuff around "bauxite" and find some other thing to experiment on.
Also, as I've said: Alchemy. It could create sodium when mixing rock salt with...something. I can imagine a tag like [COMMON_ALCHEMY_PRODUCT:INORGANIC:SODIUM] that would cause alchemal reactions/secrets to be generated at worldgen. Then you could have your alchemists try heating rock salt with coal, ash, gold, blood, etc, and see if any of those makes sodium (somehow), and it would also probably increase the chance of rock salt being the "magic ingredient" in other reactions, so if lead had [COMMON_ALCHEMY_PRODUCT:INORGANIC:GOLD], you might mix rock salt and lead and get either gold or sodium. Or both.

Of course, as Mudstone noted, sodium is rather flammable, so improper laboratory procedues involving using heat to produce it could be quite...Fun...

I'll update the OP soon.

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On the 1st of Malachite, Rampartpaddle announced that she would consider herself a miner. Shortly thereafter, I decided we could use some more bolts. I was about to simply order them, when I realised that I should exert my mayoral powers.

Sappho then orders them as manager, before asking if this isn't a bit pretentious of me. I point out that if I want to stay mayor, I need to act it! To that end, I decide to order myself not to do any menial labor like hauling or cleaning.
We caught a couple of magpie men (no women), and tamed a couple of the crowfolk (a breeding pair).
Another thing that caught my eye is a project of the mute one. She made a shaft leading up to the aquifer and down to the level below the meeting hall, depressurising it along the way. She even put a door in the way in case the depressurising thing failed. When I asked where she learned to do that, she just shrugged. Women. At least we will now have a well in the fortress proper.
On the 4th of Malachite, Rampartpaddle accidently caused a cave-in. Somehow, Strengthlashed wound up in a cage. Somehow. (He was released within half a week.) The day after the incident, migrants arrived. A (the only) notable migrant is Mr. Oiledaction, a skinny-for-an-elf medic with a muscular wife and no other family nearby. He's a bit crazy, turning to inanimate objects for advice when nervous. I decided to make him a full-time medic and part-time animal trainer and caretaker. Those crowpeople we “tamed” still look sorta wild...
We now have 14 kids and babies, 13 prisoners, and 42 wardens.
I decide to assign Splint to the position of Captain of the Guard, as well as sheriff. Hammerer, too.
On the eighth of Malachite, a construction accident lead to the unconsciousness of a ranger and The New Secrets of Drying.

On the 10th, one of the prisoners-to-be goes moody. He needs logs, silk, yarn, and leather. And a drink. He starts working on the first few things. In the meanwhile, a weaver is working on a loom to make some silk cloth, and Rampartpaddle narrowly avoids sweeping herself and her infant to a watery grave.
The weaver is collecting some webs from the caverns, and thereby exploring them. Strangely, they have so far proven entirely barren of animal life.
On the 16th, a party was organised in the dining hall. It is attended by the fishery worker and a siege engineer.
On the 18th, the fisher (surnamed Auburnurns) started constructing his artifact, with six logs, some homemade cave spider silk of superior quality, imported sheep wool cloth with dimple dye, and imported leather from giant owls and wolves. Around this time, work begins on some weapon traps near the entrance, intended to help deter goblin thieves and other nasties.
The next day, BerserkNINJA made a masterful spiked wooden ball. I don't know where to put it--in a trap, obviously, but which one?
On the 22nd, the moody (former) prisoner made The Cavernous Music, Korshasad, a highwood ring worth 960 gold [14,400 db]. It has spikes of highwood and alder, bands of wolf leather, and decorations in cave spider silk and maple. It has several smallimages: A naga woman adventurer killing a bleak freak, a couple types of cut gems (round cabochans in willow, round brilliant cuts in the giant barn owl leather). There's also a maple image of Ira Glidesouls Explained, a famed book, and most prominently (and hauntingly) a bogeyman in blue sheep wool. Most interestingly, though, is a series of grooves on the inside of the ring; heating the ring has no effect, but wind flowing through it causes a shrill note to play. Bringing the ring into the caverns, the faint breezes wafting from opening to opening caused a faint, eerie melody to be played. I think this is a wondrous device. Both Auburnurns and his relatives (his wife, the chief medical dwarf; his nine-year-old daughter; his mother's younger brother, who was drafted as a miner; and his father's parents, a marksdwarf and a ranger) are proud of this accomplishment. I think it should be placed somewhere where all can hear (its tune changes constantly, so it's not like moving it to the fortress would make us lose much). I wonder where it should go...
On another note, that cripple--Sprychamber, her name is--got all healed up. And, to add to the joy from all of these wondrous things, the bridge for dropping prisoners has all of the materials hauled to it,thanks to a long joint effort including our administrator/Copper Fate, Sappho (while she was an architect), and just about every architect in the fortress.

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I'm choosing my ending spot for the same reason as last time, more or less.

Quote from: 10ebbor10 on June 13, 2012, 10:38:13 am

There's a difference. While it might be small and not noticeable untill you add all your items into a statistic, the different levels are there to allow a smooth chance in quality produced by the worker, rather then sudden sharp spikes in quality. Your system, using the symbols, however wouldn't be able to show this, as it is unable to make the difference between a worker who produces normal 7 out of ten times and one who produces 6 out of ten times.

I agree, but... can anyone tell me the exact difference between "talented" and "great" then, from experience? I think not.

As a matter of fact, I'd prefer a system where the xp was part of the formula to determine quality, so every single xp would influence production quality, rather than a limited number of levels.

I agree, although I'd like to add that having a nigh-infinitely fine gradient of skill increase would further invalidate your idea of having skill represented by quality.

Quote

Also, I doubt you'd need to change it. There are quite a few people who like the system, and according to the poll there are only a few people who confuse it. (Keeping in mind that suggestion forums tend to be frequented more by newer members rather then older). Best thing would be to just put in the raws, but there's no need to go and worsen the system (by cutting out levels).

People like it for the atmosphere: I sympathize with that and they are useful in that regard.
Doesn't change their relative unsuitability to distinguish specific levels, and the terms only derive their usefulness from being in a fixed order relative to the top and bottom ones. Everyone knows those latter, because they matter: you have to distinguish between the best, the worst, and then what's left is a base you can consider to level up to mastery. I doubt anyone would miss them as level markers, if the terms were somehow incorporated into the gameplay again.

I really don't see why no one would miss them, as I would. What does that make me and everyone else who has argued against removing the current system of skill levels, then? And you called me a troll forn implying that you might be stupid...

Quote from: forsaken1111 on June 13, 2012, 10:42:27 am

Those terms correspond almost exactly to where the descriptive terms fall in the normal skill progression, it just damps down on confusion.

I agree. I just don't agree we need those levels. As it is, there are five levels of legendary, named the same, and it took quite a while before anyone even noticed.

Wait, what? Why don't we need the descriptive skill levels?

Quote

I've been playing DF for years and I still don't know what each of those symbols denotes. I still go and check the item description to see which one is finely crafted or whatever. With the named levels, you at least know quite easily that a novice is lower than an adept, and legendary is quite obviously better than master.

I don't know the exact names of the quality levels either... But you do know their relative worth, which is all that matters. And yes, everyone knows the top and bottom levels: they need to keep the incompetents out of the workforce, protect the masters, and all others are just somewhere on the road to mastery or in the labor reserve.

How do you know what he means, to begin with? Also, new players will probably have trouble guessing that a =gauntlet= is better than a *gauntlet* without looking at the wiki; for a while, I thought that "exceptional" was right below "superior." On the other hand, "Expert" is pretty obviously above "Proficient"--the latter implies that you are, well, proficient with the skill (able to do most things and do the basics pretty well), the former that you know what you're doing and are quite good at it.

Ceterum censeo putting it in the raws would satisfy everyone.

Yup. This is probably the best solution (unless we want to quibble over if it should be an init option or in the actual raw folder; I suggest the former, as that's where everything else about how the basic skeleton of the game is shown is put).

So, I've been playing and lurking for a while.  I've resisted registering because I try to have as small an internet footprint as possible.  This finally made me break down and register.



What about you?  Have you had any interesting encounters with the random number generator?

Oh, for the love of--"ass" is an archaic term for "donkey," more or less. It's just a poison-breathing, bloated, horned donkey with a cyclopean eye. Get. It. RIGHT!

If you need ideas, I've got some.

Settle the caverns, catch their beasts.
Make an underwater glass dome.
Ship forgotten beasts off to the Mountainhomes and goblins to the elves (if possible).
Et cetera. I can come up with lots of ideas!

I think he wanted to add some joints, and realised it would be easiest to add them to the HUMANOID_JOINTS body file.
If you still have the turn, Putnam, I'm fine with that.

A month or two? Wow, lots of time to plan...