Bay 12 Games Forum

I say GWG's character dies first.

Hey!
I say kj's character dies first!

((There are a lot of things that could be described similarly, but I personally hold to the general "identity and identification" thing. For instance. I have a PC at work, which used to be my home PC. Over the years, stuff broke down and was changed out so much that the only things possibly still remaining of the original PC tower are some of the screws, wires, and cooling fans. It never ceased to be my PC. Look at it then and look at it now, and the difference will be apparent, but so long as it is still identified, collectively, as my PC, it remains that. If I were to buy a new PC tower and transfer some of those old screws, wires, and fans into it, the proportion of the old PC remaining in the new one would be the same, yet it would no longer be my PC, as the new PC is a new identity, and adding bits of the old one does not change it.

((That specific case is because the reason it is "your PC"--that it is a personal computer belonging to the individual who goes by Sean Mirrsen on Bay12--is not altered by those changes.))

Similarly with changes in age, time of day, temperature, etc. Look now, and look later, and unless the magnitude of change isn't significant enough, the identity will remain. There is a fuzzy barrier between definitions of "morning" and "day", for instance. If you keep checking the time of day by the second, at some point you will become certain that it's day, because it can't possibly still remain morning, yet the exact point will be determined by your criteria and your perception of the meaning of "morning" or "day". Same with an aging person, there is a threshold to cross until the new identity becomes sufficiently prevalent, but until then a person who's always been seeing a growing up man as a boy, will refer to him as a boy, and perhaps other people who haven't been growing accustomed to the changes will see a "man" rather than a "boy". It's entirely a question of identity and identification - and like I said, something of an ontological one. In your eyes, an object that does not significantly change between the times you observe it, tends to remain the same object.

((And yet, despite the lack of any definable point between morning and day, or between boy and man, the changes occur. Which is my point.))

Following this line of thought, it's pretty clear that the body or the DNA is not something that determines a "person", at least in the ER-verse. There is no bodily change more drastic than having everything but the brain replaced with robotics, or for instance what Xan did to himself, yet the characters still remained themselves after such things.

((No arguments here. I was arguing more against the logic [and some of its potential applications, like that absurd switch-every-organ-of-PersonA-and-PersonB scenario.] than the results. Although those were drastic changes, so they don't really fit into the argument anyways...))

And Registeel and Mega-Aggron.
...
Hm.

More human then Jim, for instance.

Is this when he was just a clone, or now that he's synthflesh?

((Why don't you like the implications? He's basically saying the most hopeful solution to the dilemma, that if every part of your body were replaced, then you would still be the same person.
Is it just because you don't like imagining a scenario where you would need a full body prosthesis?))

((I already knew that. Anyone claiming otherwise is discriminating against the differently fleshy.
piecewise was saying that while the AM's thoughts were human-like, but neither her genetics nor her anatomy was. Are. Whatever.))

Quote from: Empiricist on December 30, 2013, 02:12:05 am

((Then surely you come to a rather terrifying prospect do you not? Your mind and all contained within it, your memories, your identity, dreams and dreads are all but irrelevant. If Person A remains Person A despite possessing Person B's body and mind rather than their own, then would it not indicate that what makes Person A, Person A is neither contained within their body nor mind? That their thoughts, sense of self and more or less who they are does not matter?))

((How is that scary?))

((It's not, because it's stupid. It claims that the thing that makes you, you, doesn't matter.))

If at no point during the process of change the object ceases to be itself, then it will continue being itself when the changes stop.

((Wrong. Myriad slow processes have no defined beginning and ending points. Take growing up. When does a boy become a man? There is no one day you can point to and say, "He was definitely a boy yesterday, but he's definitely a man today"--nor is there a point where you can definitively say a man became old today. Similarly with rust. At what point do you say "This is really rusty, but yesterday it wasn't"? Where is the boundary line between hot and cold? How about evolution--which was the first amphibian, so identical to its parents, and yet obviously there must have been one? Or stellar evolution--when did the protostar become a star? What...well, day's the wrong term, but you know what I meant. When did the boundary between India and the rest of Asia, once so flat, become a mountain range? When does a sapling become a tree? I could go on, but I've made my point.
Just because there is no one point where an object changes identities does not mean its identity doesn't change.))

The Ship of Theseus is a hypothetical ship (with, in all likelihood, many real-life counterparts) that has all of its parts replaced, plank by plank and board by board, until there's nothing but a pile of lumber that used to comprise the Ship of Theseus, and another ship that's supposedly still the Ship of Theseus, made of entirely new parts. The question is, at which point, if at any, did the ship stop being the Ship of Theseus, and became merely one like it?))

((Is there any one point?
And we also have to consider...what makes that ship the Ship of Theseus?))

Quote from: USEC_OFFICER on December 29, 2013, 10:58:36 pm

Quote from: anailater on December 29, 2013, 10:56:38 pm

I never said to burn him to death, I said to burn the building so it would collapse on him, anyway we can't do it anyway so seriously why are we still arguing this?

Because this is Bay12 the internet and we like to debate everything, no matter how small or pointless.

I personally think that might be a tad more accurate. And for those of you who don't understand it's fun to debate over everything no matter how pointless. And if you think otherwise you're wrong. (yes I am aware how ridiculous that statement is.)

Ridiculous and confusingly-structured. Mostly the latter.

What about mono-only-steel?

Mimu calms down a ton!

"Then why bad?" Shes really confused now.

"Because, they're in a really bad condition..._{Why me?}"

((Reply to Tiruin GWG ))

((I don't know what to say...Once I figure out, I will!))

((I am... unclear what is happening right now. Are we all just waiting in our homes for plot to happen?))

((More like waiting in your beds for the myriad plots to resolve so we can move on.))

wut o_O

I'm not actually quitting--just giving off the notion that since GWG is busy replying to everyone else but me, I'm happy as ever to just drop off the list and not exist, ever.

Also we could interact in other games...though I sorely did wish to try out a Magical Girl one (ironic, huh.)

It's almost as if I was an idiot and let too many people join!
Sorry for sidelining you, Tiruin.