1486
General Discussion / Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« on: April 20, 2023, 02:23:32 pm »
That’s why you get an electric one that automatically shuts off.
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1487
Mafia / Re: BYOR 16: Day 1 - 50% Dystopian Chaos Pizza Time Hat Tyrant Dio [15 / 15]
« on: April 20, 2023, 01:24:09 pm »
EuchreJack, ‘cause I should really be voting for someone I think is scum at this point.
1488
Mafia / Re: BYOR 16: Day 1 - 50% Dystopian Chaos Pizza Time Hat Tyrant Dio [15 / 15]
« on: April 20, 2023, 12:46:41 pm »Town
Tric
Curious Cat
Townlite
Jim - good vibes
Max - I'm being optimistic here
juicebox - effortposts
Lenglon - extremely hyper active, good sign
Knightwing - mafia more important than school
Toaster - interested in finding scum, I see a light of passion
Null
Jack - cannot determine
NQT - starting to rub me the wrong way
Fluffe - meh
Egan - who
Suspicious
Hector - lots of words but I don't see any value, I expect a wall of text complaining in response
FoU - completely unreasonable
Harumph
Haha I put Toony in my would-eliminate list and now I'm starting to rub him the wrong way. Oh man I am so dying tonight if Toony is scum.I probably kill Max tonight if I was mafia.
I'm a pretty emotion based detective. What I mean by that is I make my deductions based on feelings and intuition. Obviously I can form logical conclusions, but that's not how I like to catch scum. A player like Fluffe strikes me as someone that needs to evidence or hard facts to make deductions they're confident about. I can see that angle. I think you're the same way NQT.
I think that's why you made a post earlier comparing past BYORs with nonvoters and the statistics of who were scum. That part is fine. What bothers me, and drives me as a detective, is I don't get the feeling you're using your evidence to really find scum. That's what rubs me the wrong way. Maybe Egan is scum and your logic and vote are completely valid, but it's these actions that make me suspect you harder.
Or like, how can you write a big write up about three players voting habits and then not realize I was voting someone? I'm willing to give this more of a pass because you missed a ton of stuff as town in FBYOR5 and I value meta rather highly as a player, which Jim supports and Hector is dismissive of.
I’m not dismissive of meta reads as a concept, I have them myself - I actually have some agreement over Tric’s behaviour - but I also don’t think that they shouldn’t be the main justification of a series of reads.
I’m probably not going to explain it very well because today is the first day in two weeks I have some responsiblty for a baby and it’s difficult writing posts while trying to make sure they’re not trying to put bad things in their mouth, but here goes.
From my reading of Jim’s case he is reading Tric as not scum because of meta - fine, I agree - but because FoU does not agree with that he seems to be going way into confirmation bias territory by citing games in which Tric was scum and not acting like this to support his view, and then games in which FoU was scum and acting like this, when games in which FoU was acting like this and wasn’t scum are also available, and games in which FoU was scum and acting differently are available too.
I’m needed elsewhere so can’t do what I normally do and try to clean up the post for clarity but… I mean I don’t know if it’s of value to clear it up, but if anyone needs it just ask.
1489
Mafia / Re: BYOR 16: Day 1 - 50% Dystopian Chaos Pizza Time Hat Tyrant Dio [15 / 15]
« on: April 20, 2023, 12:04:00 pm »
Okay this might be sleep inertia and distractedness talking, but if we’re going to eliminate a claimed Mason, would we not be better eliminating the less active one so the more active one is confirmed town?
If they’re lying scum then it doesn’t necessarily (super power role game aside) matter which order they go in.
If they’re lying scum then it doesn’t necessarily (super power role game aside) matter which order they go in.
1490
Mafia / Re: BYOR 16: Day 1 - 50% Dystopian Chaos Pizza Time Hat Tyrant Dio [15 / 15]
« on: April 19, 2023, 11:44:58 pm »
I wanted to respond to this before but I was needed elsewhere, and now everyone is sleeping.
Max
It’s more “FoU did X in A,B, and C context so drawing conclusions from it is fallacious.”
FoU sometimes goes with the flow, sometimes goes off and does his own thing, sometimes the latter is a little bit bananas.
Point is he was scum in the game Jim quoted, and I think that quote was not a particularly great example of FoU doing mad things as scum because that was the only thing he could do on the face of his team having basically lost at that point, as well as FoU acting very subdued and trying to blend in on D1 of that game by not really doing much of anything beyond dropping read lists, which is a significant departure from what’s happening in this game.
Alright I’ll accept the accusation of odd caution on your part was an inaccurate assessment on my part, you do tend to keep your cards close to your chest regardless and perhaps I was reading a bit too much into it after the conclusions I drew from… whatever is happening between you and Jim.
As for your examples there’s quite a range of things in there, and I’ll confess to thinking the third example in there would be what you brought up. PPE: I also was going to ask what “managing town” meant, but you answered that already and… I mean, that’s mafia in a nutshell isn’t it? You’re trying to get people to do what you want as town ‘cause you don’t know who to trust beyond yourself, and try to do it as scum ‘cause the best way to win is to co-opt their biggest weapon against you: the elimination.
I also don’t like this idea of people being more wary of me because I’m good at the game, but that’s just a personal gripe that I have to do a little bit extra work as a consequence and I’m lazy.
I mean… ease of availability is subjective. Like I said above, I’m lazy, if folk can lay out their case with links and highlights so I have to put less effort into understanding it, cool beans. If I have to go to a post to understand context it’s not so cool beans. If I have to understand the context of a completely different game, that’s not happening.
Context is very important though. If we just immediately hammered someone on D1, there would be no context to analyze in relation to their flip on D2. If we let the game take a natural progression though we have a lot we can build on for D2, like voting patterns, how they interacted (or not) with other players, basic stuff like that.
So yeah, when Jim trims things down on a post I made, limiting easily available context, people could click the link to the post, but I personally wouldn’t. Not that egregious really, but when he uses a quote from a different game to justify his read on a player in this game, and that quote means something different within the context of that game, then yeah I feel that’s a lot more problematical, and a reason why I’m not liking Jim in this one.
On that same token, Jim has referred to a handful of games in which Tric was anti-town and how his behaviour in those relates to his behaviour in this game, and I think (without checking since I’m back on my phone) he didn’t link to those games, so people wanting to check the veracity of those claims would have to find those games, then read through those games. That means they’re not reading this one, which is obviously more important to solving this game. Similarly with his justifications about FoU, but he provided that one quote and possibly other links I’m not remembering.
With that I think I’ll call it a night. I should go to sleep but I’ll probably read Shigurui manga until very late and be tired and cranky for tomorrow.
Max
You were in the game and know the context, wtf is this bullshit!?Not only that, but I'd just reread it only a day or two before. I just don't see your point.
"Fallacy did X in Y context, so he wouldn't do it in Z context!"?
I also remember Fallacy acting in a way like this as scum with me in Kill Webadict Now. I see similarities to his play in Bring Three just a moment ago, too. Yes, he always has some kind of a reason, the point isn't the reason, the point is this is his standard toolbox.
It’s more “FoU did X in A,B, and C context so drawing conclusions from it is fallacious.”
FoU sometimes goes with the flow, sometimes goes off and does his own thing, sometimes the latter is a little bit bananas.
Point is he was scum in the game Jim quoted, and I think that quote was not a particularly great example of FoU doing mad things as scum because that was the only thing he could do on the face of his team having basically lost at that point, as well as FoU acting very subdued and trying to blend in on D1 of that game by not really doing much of anything beyond dropping read lists, which is a significant departure from what’s happening in this game.
As to your complaint about my complaint about you, part of your argument is reasonable: that I didn't give examples of you managing town, but part is not: that I was somehow being "oddly cautious" by answering a question from somebody else. If I hadn't been asked I probably wouldn't have brought it up at all today, since my focus is on Fallacy, plus you were absent by your own admission so I'd have given you the benefit of the doubt for a while anyway. It's not oddly cautious to frame it as an answer to a question when somebody else asked me the question entirely outside my own control. Unless you think I coordinated with Toaster to open the opportunity to shade you? That's actually fair, but I probably wouldn't have bothered doing that as scum, I don't think.
Back to the reasonable part: Well, I can't really speak to what end you'd be managing town toward yet, because I don't know your plans. I can see the patterns but I don't know where they point yet. I didn't have a list of examples ready because, like I've said before, that's not really how my brain works, but I looked back over your posts and I think I see signs of it here, here, and here, just for a start, not to mention in the post I'm responding to now.
Still, man, like you said, it's d1, I don't have any super strong scumreads yet. If someone wasn't dead set on voting out one of my strongest townreads I don't really know what I'd be doing. I'm not trying to set you up, and don't read too much into it. I'm more suspicious of you because I know you're a strong player.
Alright I’ll accept the accusation of odd caution on your part was an inaccurate assessment on my part, you do tend to keep your cards close to your chest regardless and perhaps I was reading a bit too much into it after the conclusions I drew from… whatever is happening between you and Jim.
As for your examples there’s quite a range of things in there, and I’ll confess to thinking the third example in there would be what you brought up. PPE: I also was going to ask what “managing town” meant, but you answered that already and… I mean, that’s mafia in a nutshell isn’t it? You’re trying to get people to do what you want as town ‘cause you don’t know who to trust beyond yourself, and try to do it as scum ‘cause the best way to win is to co-opt their biggest weapon against you: the elimination.
I also don’t like this idea of people being more wary of me because I’m good at the game, but that’s just a personal gripe that I have to do a little bit extra work as a consequence and I’m lazy.
You and Lenglon and Fallacy have all been harping on about "context" and I really don't get it. I don't think it's disingenuous to quote something "out of context" when the context is easily available? None of the quotes that I've seen have struck me as particularly misrepresentative at all. It feels insincere to an extent, although I don't actually think all of you are scum, so at least some of you probably mean it. I think I just don't get it. I may be biased in that I think Tric and Jim are both extremely townie, I guess, but you knew that already.
I mean… ease of availability is subjective. Like I said above, I’m lazy, if folk can lay out their case with links and highlights so I have to put less effort into understanding it, cool beans. If I have to go to a post to understand context it’s not so cool beans. If I have to understand the context of a completely different game, that’s not happening.
Context is very important though. If we just immediately hammered someone on D1, there would be no context to analyze in relation to their flip on D2. If we let the game take a natural progression though we have a lot we can build on for D2, like voting patterns, how they interacted (or not) with other players, basic stuff like that.
So yeah, when Jim trims things down on a post I made, limiting easily available context, people could click the link to the post, but I personally wouldn’t. Not that egregious really, but when he uses a quote from a different game to justify his read on a player in this game, and that quote means something different within the context of that game, then yeah I feel that’s a lot more problematical, and a reason why I’m not liking Jim in this one.
On that same token, Jim has referred to a handful of games in which Tric was anti-town and how his behaviour in those relates to his behaviour in this game, and I think (without checking since I’m back on my phone) he didn’t link to those games, so people wanting to check the veracity of those claims would have to find those games, then read through those games. That means they’re not reading this one, which is obviously more important to solving this game. Similarly with his justifications about FoU, but he provided that one quote and possibly other links I’m not remembering.
With that I think I’ll call it a night. I should go to sleep but I’ll probably read Shigurui manga until very late and be tired and cranky for tomorrow.
1491
Mafia / Re: BYOR 16: Day 1 - 50% Dystopian Chaos Pizza Time Hat Tyrant Dio [15 / 15]
« on: April 19, 2023, 08:01:50 pm »Asking people about, or clarification of, the reasons they're voting is... kinda basic in the game of mafia. If you think it's a waste of time we can get rid of you early so you can play Noita if you like?Neither is EJ but you're allowing him to skirt by without doing anything.
Oh, yes, meta, sorry, carry on
Like... I can get how maybe he doesn't do anything with the veteran players because they're practiced enough to be able to justify most things, but there's 3 or 4 newer players doing NOTHING that he can be poking at, so why isn't he, and why isn't that bothering you?
Why are you griping at me
More of your meta reads.
I think in the last day his only post as been “expect nothing ‘til D2” because he’s allowed to get away with it, and you’re one of the ones that allow it with said meta read.
Toony too, but he was less effusive about it and I’ve not been as bothered about him than you so gripe gripe gripe.
And now I’m paranoid about it so I’ll say this but wasn’t mocking Jim either, just letting him now why I was griping at him and I wasn’t tilted about it.
1492
Mafia / Re: BYOR 16: Day 1 - 50% Dystopian Chaos Pizza Time Hat Tyrant Dio [15 / 15]
« on: April 19, 2023, 07:44:35 pm »mafia is srs bznz gripe gripe gripe
Oh wait I think I see, no, this is me mocking me, not Jim.
1493
Mafia / Re: BYOR 16: Day 1 - 50% Dystopian Chaos Pizza Time Hat Tyrant Dio [15 / 15]
« on: April 19, 2023, 07:38:56 pm »
If I’m being disrespectful I don’t mean to be, so sorry. Just trying to get across I’m not unchill.
1494
Mafia / Re: BYOR 16: Day 1 - 50% Dystopian Chaos Pizza Time Hat Tyrant Dio [15 / 15]
« on: April 19, 2023, 07:23:51 pm »
mafia is srs bznz gripe gripe gripe
1495
Mafia / Re: BYOR 16: Day 1 - 50% Dystopian Chaos Pizza Time Hat Tyrant Dio [15 / 15]
« on: April 19, 2023, 06:55:52 pm »Asking people about, or clarification of, the reasons they're voting is... kinda basic in the game of mafia. If you think it's a waste of time we can get rid of you early so you can play Noita if you like?Neither is EJ but you're allowing him to skirt by without doing anything.
Oh, yes, meta, sorry, carry on
Like... I can get how maybe he doesn't do anything with the veteran players because they're practiced enough to be able to justify most things, but there's 3 or 4 newer players doing NOTHING that he can be poking at, so why isn't he, and why isn't that bothering you?
Why are you griping at me
More of your meta reads.
I think in the last day his only post as been “expect nothing ‘til D2” because he’s allowed to get away with it, and you’re one of the ones that allow it with said meta read.
Toony too, but he was less effusive about it and I’ve not been as bothered about him than you so gripe gripe gripe.
1496
Mafia / Re: BYOR 16: Day 1 - 50% Dystopian Chaos Pizza Time Hat Tyrant Dio [15 / 15]
« on: April 19, 2023, 06:26:27 pm »
Toaster
They also fall thin when the entire basis of your game so far has been about it, a la Jim. It's an advanced variety, but it's still active-lurking. Makes him look as though he's contributing to the game without saying things people can realistically respond to within the context of this game.
Jim
Neither is EJ but you're allowing him to skirt by without doing anything.
Oh, yes, meta, sorry, carry on
Like... I can get how maybe he doesn't do anything with the veteran players because they're practiced enough to be able to justify most things, but there's 3 or 4 newer players doing NOTHING that he can be poking at, so why isn't he, and why isn't that bothering you?
Knightwing64
So what are you going to do about... any of this? I get you've got school, which is much more important than this, but... even if you just pick one and go to town, that'd be cool. Hint: FoU and Jim are shouting at each other, you might want to choose Toaster.
I've not really read too much of what Lenglon has been doing in the whole FoU/Max/Tric/Jim nonsense, because I was more interested in at least Max and Jim there, but she at least seems to be poking at everyone involved (on the surface) so I'll take a deeper look at that at some point, though I'll be back to pfp by then...
I might have to read Tric's posts in greater detail after all *sighs*
I'm not sure how likely it is, but I'm vibing a scum team of Jim/Max/EJ/Tric, loosely in that order of how confident I am. Maybe Max first, and Tric only exists in the team because of Jim pushing woeful meta arguments about FoU and Tric, and Max supporting them for some as yet unknown reason, 'cause I cannot fathom a world in which he genuinely buys what Jim is selling here. Associative reads ftw.
Getting into the last 24 hours of the day so... I guess I'd be cool with a Jim/Max/EJ elimination.
PPE: I've been clicking preview a lot on this post and I don't really know why so I'll post it, mostly because I need to do something else. For some reason I think I'm missing something, though that might just be a consequence of how quickly I finished the post in relation to pfp...
Fallacy meta arguments fall real thin when you’re using them as self defense.
They also fall thin when the entire basis of your game so far has been about it, a la Jim. It's an advanced variety, but it's still active-lurking. Makes him look as though he's contributing to the game without saying things people can realistically respond to within the context of this game.
Jim
Doover.
PFP.
xkcd comic
@Jim @Max
You're not a stranger to mafia...
Neither is EJ but you're allowing him to skirt by without doing anything.
Oh, yes, meta, sorry, carry on
Like... I can get how maybe he doesn't do anything with the veteran players because they're practiced enough to be able to justify most things, but there's 3 or 4 newer players doing NOTHING that he can be poking at, so why isn't he, and why isn't that bothering you?
Knightwing64
Oh, I remember winning with Tric with that dragon thing, that was nice. Anyway, I think with 15 players in a webadict game, it’s a pretty safe assumption to think there’s at least 1 3P.
FOU is acting kinda strange, but I suppose I could ascribe that to playstyle/personality differences and the stress of being on the chopping block.
Jim isn’t really posting at the rate they normally do, which I think is a little weird. Any thoughts, Jim?
Toaster feels pretentious, I don’t like
So what are you going to do about... any of this? I get you've got school, which is much more important than this, but... even if you just pick one and go to town, that'd be cool. Hint: FoU and Jim are shouting at each other, you might want to choose Toaster.
I've not really read too much of what Lenglon has been doing in the whole FoU/Max/Tric/Jim nonsense, because I was more interested in at least Max and Jim there, but she at least seems to be poking at everyone involved (on the surface) so I'll take a deeper look at that at some point, though I'll be back to pfp by then...
I might have to read Tric's posts in greater detail after all *sighs*
I'm not sure how likely it is, but I'm vibing a scum team of Jim/Max/EJ/Tric, loosely in that order of how confident I am. Maybe Max first, and Tric only exists in the team because of Jim pushing woeful meta arguments about FoU and Tric, and Max supporting them for some as yet unknown reason, 'cause I cannot fathom a world in which he genuinely buys what Jim is selling here. Associative reads ftw.
Getting into the last 24 hours of the day so... I guess I'd be cool with a Jim/Max/EJ elimination.
PPE: I've been clicking preview a lot on this post and I don't really know why so I'll post it, mostly because I need to do something else. For some reason I think I'm missing something, though that might just be a consequence of how quickly I finished the post in relation to pfp...
1497
Mafia / Re: BYOR 16: Day 1 - 50% Dystopian Chaos Pizza Time Hat Tyrant Dio [15 / 15]
« on: April 19, 2023, 05:42:13 pm »
*sits at a computer to type out a post, the first time this has been done in frickin' years*
Okay, I was going to read through things and kinda respond to things as I went along but the whole Tric/Fou/Jim/Max thing really bothers me and there are a lot of big posts I need to trim to make it easier to parse...
So here goes.
Toaster
Not very, but I'm sure that's why you asked. I had kinda checked out of the game at that point, but a weak vote is infinitely more useful than not voting at all. I basically voted NQT there to let folks know where my suspicions lay, and wasn't really expecting much from NQT because he's not silly enough to slip as scum on D1.
Responding to you because it's a little relevant to Jim's portion later; context brah.
MaxSpin
This is one of the first bits that raised my suspicions.
I will quite willingly walk into whatever you're setting for me here because I'm just that kind of person:
You bring up me doing this but don't provide examples of how I'm managing town, nor to what end I'm managing town toward.
I am within the scumpicks of you, Jim, Toony, NQT, FoU, EJ, probably Toaster. Basically all the people that matter and could actually build a case on me if they wanted. If I'm "managing the town" as you say, I am doing a spectacularly poor job of it.
Further, the... oddly cautious way of approaching it, relating to someone else's question rather than directed at me, reminds me an awful lot of FoU's D1 play in the Supernatural game we played recently, in which his D1 play relating to me was basically "hector is scawy" and he was scum.
You can argue that the main strategy for scum is not necessarily to be viewed as the most townie, but just now be viewed as the most scummy, but dude it's D1, once the other scumpicks are out of the way, I'm on the chopping block.
Jim
This was another thing raising my hackles.
You know one thing that really ticks me off about mafia games? Having to read through Tric's posts, don't make me do it, guy.
Another thing that bothers me though, is disingeuousnessnessness.
You've trimmed out context for that vote, and also ignored the post I made nearby that one (this quoted post is #347, the one I refer to is #342) in which I laid out some questions for NQT to answer, one of which was less than serious, and should thus alert people to how serious the vote was.
That post was also 10 posts after post #332, in which I said I was not feeling up to playing mafia for the day for myriad reasons, or am I also allowed to get all hot and bothered the next time you say you'd prefer to play Noita than mafia?
These two also bother me. I have significant issue with meta arguments being used to clear/indict someone in a game to the extent you are using them and that's all your read on Tric and FoU is.
You've pointed out two games in which Tric was not town and said you don't think Tric's play in this game is similar. In order to counter those arguments, people then have to read those games, not this one we're actually playing, and even if they do that your response could reasonably be "that's just, like, uh, your opinion man".
Tric's alignment in those games have zero bearing on his alignment in this one, so there's zero point to bringing this up.
Further, a major problem with meta reads is that given a sufficintly long enough career on a forum, as FoU has here, you can find anything from any other game to back up your "read" on any alignment.
I've seen FoU double down on shitty arguments as third-party (MafiaKart, the game he outed himself as benign TP in his first post and said (DESPITE STRONG MISGIVINGS ON MY PART) that he would only sell his actions to town, when he then proceeded to sell his actions to the mafia team and SK) and I'm pretty damn sure I've seen it as town too.
FoU is a tenacious MF'er, once he has an idea in his head and thinks it's right, there is basically nothing that will change his mind, particularly when he is unsure of the motives behind people trying to change it. It's NAI.
This leads me very happily into this bullshit:
Yes, but unrelated to his alignment.
However, this quote, much like when you trimmed away everything else in the post about my vote further up, is very devoid of context. That's the problem of quoting from games that other people played in, they might remember what was going on in them
It's D2, Vector has been outed as having attempted to kill ToonyMan by Tric's Loud Bodyguard or whatever the role is called (he died in place of the target but tells the target who the killer was) and the three suspects remaining for scum in that game were me, NQT, and FoU. The latter two were scum.
The game was basically mechanically solved at that point, and FoU knew it, so really his only option was to try to throw shade on the two power roles he knew about that could mess his team up: the tracker/watcher, which was you, and the Psychic Warden (a blocker) that he thought was Max. The fact he didn't give up and actually tried something, however insane, was commendable. D1 lasted until page 31, that quote is from page 33, and the game was over two day phases and two night phases later basically by page 40.
An even worse point for you in that game was scum!FoU's D1 play, which was the polar opposite of what he's doing now, in that he basically did nothing except passive-aggressively throw shade my way until I got upset about it and spent the remainder of the day failing to convince the rest of the town I was right, and being scumspected as a consequence.
My horribly belaboured point is that of all the examples available on the forum, you chose one in which FoU basically had no choice but to make insane arguments, and one in which his D1 play shares absolutely nothing in common with his D1 play in this game.
Do I have to hammer home how ridiculous this is?
Max/Jim Again I'm leading into the next bit, Max's utterly ridiculous comment:
You were in the game and know the context, wtf is this bullshit!?
I don't know if you and Jim are scum, but I'm pretty convinced that at least one of you is, I just don't know if it's the blatantly disingenuous one or the blatantly buddying one.
Maybe someone else should decide, seeing as I was hoping he'd do something in the time I was gone but was disappointed.
EJ
How's about ideally now? You think I'm scum but you're not voting for me, and I at least asked you to find someone else for me to vote at some point though I can't be bothered to look.
So how's about this: you got any thoughts on this Max/Jim connection? How's about the Tric/FoU thing?
I should type these out more often that was fun and easy and really convenient why do I keep playing this on just my phone?
Oh, I should also say that I also don't particularly like FoU's tunnel on Tric, but it's at least generating some content from others, and it's sufficiently different from his D1 play as scum in Meph's Supernatural that I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for the time being.
*makes to leave, turns around at the last moment*
Just one more thing!
Jim
Asking people about, or clarification of, the reasons they're voting is... kinda basic in the game of mafia. If you think it's a waste of time we can get rid of you early so you can play Noita if you like?
There's a ridiculous number of people who are getting away with not doing anything right now, and being new is no excuse.
I'll post this just now, I think there was something else I wanted to say but being able to type this all out probably makes the wall a bit too big :|
Okay, I was going to read through things and kinda respond to things as I went along but the whole Tric/Fou/Jim/Max thing really bothers me and there are a lot of big posts I need to trim to make it easier to parse...
So here goes.
Toaster
Hector:Why you answerin’ questions for other people eh? Totes scum. /s
I should be voting so I guess I’ll back up my stuff on NQT.
*10 hours later*
notquitethere
How serious is this vote?
Not very, but I'm sure that's why you asked. I had kinda checked out of the game at that point, but a weak vote is infinitely more useful than not voting at all. I basically voted NQT there to let folks know where my suspicions lay, and wasn't really expecting much from NQT because he's not silly enough to slip as scum on D1.
Responding to you because it's a little relevant to Jim's portion later; context brah.
MaxSpin
This is one of the first bits that raised my suspicions.
hector is similar, but I can reify it a little more because I was scum with hector not too long ago (Proc Gen... I want to say 4?), and he reminds me of his play then, in that he seems to be "managing town", so to speak. You know, trying to rhetorically cut off certain things and promote others, not too different from what I accused Fallacy of doing. In that game, we... this may not be the best thing to bring up at this immediate point in time... we goaded Fallacy into acting shady to set him up for the d1 lynch, and made NJW2000 the fall guy. This kind of managing is a strong suit of hector's, I think.
I will quite willingly walk into whatever you're setting for me here because I'm just that kind of person:
You bring up me doing this but don't provide examples of how I'm managing town, nor to what end I'm managing town toward.
I am within the scumpicks of you, Jim, Toony, NQT, FoU, EJ, probably Toaster. Basically all the people that matter and could actually build a case on me if they wanted. If I'm "managing the town" as you say, I am doing a spectacularly poor job of it.
Further, the... oddly cautious way of approaching it, relating to someone else's question rather than directed at me, reminds me an awful lot of FoU's D1 play in the Supernatural game we played recently, in which his D1 play relating to me was basically "hector is scawy" and he was scum.
You can argue that the main strategy for scum is not necessarily to be viewed as the most townie, but just now be viewed as the most scummy, but dude it's D1, once the other scumpicks are out of the way, I'm on the chopping block.
Jim
This was another thing raising my hackles.
notquitethere
Mmmmmm, I don't feel this. I'll stack it on top of all my other misgivings about you.
I should, but I won't, check what your case on notquitethere is and see if I feel there's merit to it.
You know one thing that really ticks me off about mafia games? Having to read through Tric's posts, don't make me do it, guy.
Another thing that bothers me though, is disingeuousnessnessness.
You've trimmed out context for that vote, and also ignored the post I made nearby that one (this quoted post is #347, the one I refer to is #342) in which I laid out some questions for NQT to answer, one of which was less than serious, and should thus alert people to how serious the vote was.
That post was also 10 posts after post #332, in which I said I was not feeling up to playing mafia for the day for myriad reasons, or am I also allowed to get all hot and bothered the next time you say you'd prefer to play Noita than mafia?
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I think the only points of reference for TricMagic's non town game are Fallacy's BYOR whatever where he was a dragon (deez nutz), the one cult game I ran where he was the cult leader, and then notquitethere's Revolutions game. If he's been scum in other games I don't recall them.
Fallacy's BYOR is a wash since he was a third party SK and did literally nothing SK-like. In the cult game I think I recall him blending into the background and from what I remember of Revolutions TricMagic dialed down the boisterousness, exuberance, personality, etc., a lot for that game.
This game's TricMagic does not match Revolutions or the cult game I ran, but it does match literally every game TricMagic is town in and when he was a dragon or otherwise not on a team, which is what people have been saying.
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I stopped closely reading midway through FallacyofUrist's and TricMagic's argument and I maintain I missed nothing of substance.
Anyways, let's lynch FallacyofUrist. I think I have honestly seen this pattern of doubling down on a bad argument in a past game where he was scum.
These two also bother me. I have significant issue with meta arguments being used to clear/indict someone in a game to the extent you are using them and that's all your read on Tric and FoU is.
You've pointed out two games in which Tric was not town and said you don't think Tric's play in this game is similar. In order to counter those arguments, people then have to read those games, not this one we're actually playing, and even if they do that your response could reasonably be "that's just, like, uh, your opinion man".
Tric's alignment in those games have zero bearing on his alignment in this one, so there's zero point to bringing this up.
Further, a major problem with meta reads is that given a sufficintly long enough career on a forum, as FoU has here, you can find anything from any other game to back up your "read" on any alignment.
I've seen FoU double down on shitty arguments as third-party (MafiaKart, the game he outed himself as benign TP in his first post and said (DESPITE STRONG MISGIVINGS ON MY PART) that he would only sell his actions to town, when he then proceeded to sell his actions to the mafia team and SK) and I'm pretty damn sure I've seen it as town too.
FoU is a tenacious MF'er, once he has an idea in his head and thinks it's right, there is basically nothing that will change his mind, particularly when he is unsure of the motives behind people trying to change it. It's NAI.
This leads me very happily into this bullshit:
Anyways, let's lynch FallacyofUrist. I think I have honestly seen this pattern of doubling down on a bad argument in a past game where he was scum.
I think the game I'm being reminded of is Paranormal 27. I feel like there are a lot of similarities between that game and this game for how FallacyofUrist is playing.Okay Jim is the hivemind leader and he converted Max, the psychic warden. Got it.Wait, fuck, that actually makes sense.
Jim as Hivemind, uses the tech slot to get a Permanent Holoform Modulator. Uses that to show himself like a Kook would.
Converts Max, the psychic warden.
Gets Max's results, and uses the fact that I was roleblocked to fakeclaim a Snooper Bot.
Well, fuck.
I think scum FoU has a bad habit of doubling down on obviously stupid arguments.
Yes, but unrelated to his alignment.
However, this quote, much like when you trimmed away everything else in the post about my vote further up, is very devoid of context. That's the problem of quoting from games that other people played in, they might remember what was going on in them
It's D2, Vector has been outed as having attempted to kill ToonyMan by Tric's Loud Bodyguard or whatever the role is called (he died in place of the target but tells the target who the killer was) and the three suspects remaining for scum in that game were me, NQT, and FoU. The latter two were scum.
The game was basically mechanically solved at that point, and FoU knew it, so really his only option was to try to throw shade on the two power roles he knew about that could mess his team up: the tracker/watcher, which was you, and the Psychic Warden (a blocker) that he thought was Max. The fact he didn't give up and actually tried something, however insane, was commendable. D1 lasted until page 31, that quote is from page 33, and the game was over two day phases and two night phases later basically by page 40.
An even worse point for you in that game was scum!FoU's D1 play, which was the polar opposite of what he's doing now, in that he basically did nothing except passive-aggressively throw shade my way until I got upset about it and spent the remainder of the day failing to convince the rest of the town I was right, and being scumspected as a consequence.
My horribly belaboured point is that of all the examples available on the forum, you chose one in which FoU basically had no choice but to make insane arguments, and one in which his D1 play shares absolutely nothing in common with his D1 play in this game.
Do I have to hammer home how ridiculous this is?
Max/Jim Again I'm leading into the next bit, Max's utterly ridiculous comment:
Anyways, let's lynch FallacyofUrist. I think I have honestly seen this pattern of doubling down on a bad argument in a past game where he was scum.I believe you absolutely have, because I know I have.
Oh, I see you got an example, too. That was a great one.
You were in the game and know the context, wtf is this bullshit!?
I don't know if you and Jim are scum, but I'm pretty convinced that at least one of you is, I just don't know if it's the blatantly disingenuous one or the blatantly buddying one.
Maybe someone else should decide, seeing as I was hoping he'd do something in the time I was gone but was disappointed.
EJ
EuchreJack:Day 2, ideally.Toony: I was voting on my own to see how others responded, including voting Toaster as you & Jim seemed to suspect him. But you seem to have been doing well, and I love TMNT, so I guess I can sheep you for a bit.
"I was voting on my own by copying what you did"
At what point of the game are you going to stop sheeping? I don't mean pretending to not sheep; I mean actually stop.
Otherwise Tric is gonna have to roll out the "Jack is a Sheep" meme again.
How's about ideally now? You think I'm scum but you're not voting for me, and I at least asked you to find someone else for me to vote at some point though I can't be bothered to look.
So how's about this: you got any thoughts on this Max/Jim connection? How's about the Tric/FoU thing?
I should type these out more often that was fun and easy and really convenient why do I keep playing this on just my phone?
Oh, I should also say that I also don't particularly like FoU's tunnel on Tric, but it's at least generating some content from others, and it's sufficiently different from his D1 play as scum in Meph's Supernatural that I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for the time being.
*makes to leave, turns around at the last moment*
Just one more thing!
Jim
...
Jim: Do you mind presenting your full case for us? this is all I can find:
. . .
And then your most recent two posts.
The problem I have here is that your entire basis is that "FoU's argument is bad". You don't include what the actual problem with the argument IS.
Please, take the extra steps to build a foundation for your house. What is the core, base, central, problem with FoU's case that makes FoU scum for having it? Stop skipping this step please.
FoU is scum because he thinks TricMagic is scum which is completely incompatible with my meta read on TricMagic. Moreover, if FallacyofUrist were genuinely town, I think he should have the same read about TricMagic that I do given that I think he's a capable enough player for it and he's played with TricMagic enough to recognize it.
There are also aspects of his scum play that I recognize, but these showed up after my initial vote on him. I elaborated a bit in my previous post.
I don't think I've been mysterious about my reasons why so I'm confused why there's a gap for you. I wasted too much time answering this befuddling question.
Asking people about, or clarification of, the reasons they're voting is... kinda basic in the game of mafia. If you think it's a waste of time we can get rid of you early so you can play Noita if you like?
There's a ridiculous number of people who are getting away with not doing anything right now, and being new is no excuse.
I'll post this just now, I think there was something else I wanted to say but being able to type this all out probably makes the wall a bit too big :|
1498
Mafia / Re: BYOR 16: Day 1 - 50% Dystopian Chaos Pizza Time Hat Tyrant Dio [15 / 15]
« on: April 19, 2023, 11:28:53 am »Aye of course you choose the day I take some me time to explode the thread.
I was trying to keep up yesterday and got… some way through the FoU/Tric thing before giving up because parsing Tric is hard enough when my brain is not leaking out of my ears and nose, so I will give the thread a going over and respond to things as I go.
This will take longer than I thought as I have apparently gotten used to having help which is no longer available.
1499
Mafia / Re: BYOR 16: Day 1 - 50% Dystopian Chaos Pizza Time Hat Tyrant Dio [15 / 15]
« on: April 19, 2023, 10:44:58 am »
Aye of course you choose the day I take some me time to explode the thread.
I was trying to keep up yesterday and got… some way through the FoU/Tric thing before giving up because parsing Tric is hard enough when my brain is not leaking out of my ears and nose, so I will give the thread a going over and respond to things as I go.
I was trying to keep up yesterday and got… some way through the FoU/Tric thing before giving up because parsing Tric is hard enough when my brain is not leaking out of my ears and nose, so I will give the thread a going over and respond to things as I go.
1500
Mafia / Re: BYOR 16: Day 1 - 50% Dystopian Chaos Pizza Time Hat Tyrant Dio [15 / 15]
« on: April 18, 2023, 05:07:38 pm »
Oh I thought the day was ending tomorrow evening, fantastico.
You two (Fluffe Cat, tee hee) need to do some scumhunting.
As does KW.
But anyway, who do you think is scum right now, and who do you think is town? Why?
You two (Fluffe Cat, tee hee) need to do some scumhunting.
As does KW.
But anyway, who do you think is scum right now, and who do you think is town? Why?