Bay 12 Games Forum

Is this the paranoia we’ve been waiting for? :p

Lenglon

Quote from: hector13 on September 22, 2022, 08:33:38 pm

Is Lenglon poking Mad about voting NQT while she is also voting NQT? Oooookaaaay…

Max voting NQT is not making me feel good about Max, tying up the votes if I’m correct on that front. He mentioned wanting to eliminate them earlier in this post, based on the fact he doesn’t know much about NQT (as well as 4mask and Persus) but… that feels like a very crappy reason to eliminate someone, particularly combined with him suggesting the best one to get rid of would be the one that’s interacted with the most players, which… maybe that would make an informative elimination, but it’s based on something I think is more likely to be a town thing, so I don’t like it.

PPE: couple of posts to read while I was looking for Max’s post

It's because I think Max is 3p, and I believe they're simply hopping on the most likely to cause not-Max to be the lynch bandwagon. I don't actually want Max lynched today, but I don't think Max is town. So when I see Max doing non-town things I am attempting to highlight it for people to see.

I don't mind Max voting NQT, just don't like Max's reasons for doing it.

What do you think the role distribution is like? If I remember right, you’re claiming town-ally that doesn’t count as town for the Evil wincon, you think Max is TP, Max has claimed there’s an evil witch in the game, which seems oddly specific when juxtaposed versus 4mask’s claim of doing something if he targets someone in the wolf team, by which I assume he means someone Evil, so would it be fair to say 2 TP (you and Max) maybe a witch SK and 2 scum? Or is the witch coven just the scum team, which (to me) possibly doesn’t make sense when you and Max have claimed monster tags for your actions, and 4mask’s claim I referred to earlier has to do with monsters, if I recall correctly.

That got away from me, little bit more feisty than I mean it, but it’s late and I can’t be bothered cleaning it up, sorry heh.

So, uh… yeah. What do you think the role distribution is?

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MaxSpin

Quote from: hector13 on September 22, 2022, 08:33:38 pm

Is Lenglon poking Mad about voting NQT while she is also voting NQT? Oooookaaaay…

Max voting NQT is not making me feel good about Max, tying up the votes if I’m correct on that front. He mentioned wanting to eliminate them earlier in this post, based on the fact he doesn’t know much about NQT (as well as 4mask and Persus) but… that feels like a very crappy reason to eliminate someone, particularly combined with him suggesting the best one to get rid of would be the one that’s interacted with the most players, which… maybe that would make an informative elimination, but it’s based on something I think is more likely to be a town thing, so I don’t like it.

PPE: couple of posts to read while I was looking for Max’s post

I don't think that interacting with people is more likely to be a town thing in the case of strong players. It's easy to interact with people to look town. We just did it ourselves two games ago. But what I really mean isn't "interacted with the most players" exactly, but "has mutual entanglement with the most players so that the flip tells you something about them". Which I think is certainly true of NQT.
I also, to be clear, think there's a good chance NQT may actually be scum. I am even starting to think that NQT could be part of a witch coven that are trying to bat for each other subtly, and since I already think that there is a member of a witch coven who is secretly evil...

I mean… that just sounds like a regular scum team but with witch flavour so… it shouldn’t need any special consideration or anything like that :p

The thing about what you’re seeming to suggest above is that lynching a strong player would be beneficial to town, which seems a bit backward.

 D’you mind giving me a summary on why you think NQT is scum? I don’t remember you saying why, but I’ve been getting distracted by various things as I’ve been reading and posting so I may have missed it, and I don’t want to trawl through the thread looking for it because I’ll inevitably get distracted again as that’s my life now.

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As an aside. I don’t really recall ever seeing such a chaotic D1 with what seems like everyone suspecting so many different people and voting in so many different ways so yeah… don’t blame ya Persus.

Kind of a soft list seeing as it’s D1, there’s too many people to figure out, there’s too much distraction that I can’t escape from, and my motivation for the game tanked after Lenglon’s outburst, but here goes, in loose town-scum order, after Lenglon anyway:

Lenglon is TP.

Knightwing feels like town KW, panicking a bit when attention turns to them and insisting they’re town. Making some moves here and there, hopefully developing their game a bit. Could be getting coached, but he was town in NQT’s game and was acting similar so… benefit of the doubt given.

EuchreJack is… probably town? I mean, town!EJ usually goes through phases of rampant paranoia which I haven’t seen, particularly when people pressure him, but he’s making an effort even if that effort is a little bit weird at times (voting 4mask to see what happens, townreading Max as he agrees with Max) but it feels like he’s hitting the right notes for the most part. I find it hard to believe the change in mentality could be solely down to being coached in scumchat, particularly with the frequency of his posts, but I’ll keep that in my back pocket for the time being, just in case.

NQT started out with some analysis of previous games, which is a good way to look active without actually doing anything, but followed it up with pokes and prods of other players. Said he’d wait for stragglers to post a reads list, has done so but I haven’t read it in detail yet. Town-lean.

Toony has been engaging with everyone as far as I can tell, driving the game forward. He’s perfectly capable of doing this as scum, but I’m happy to say he’s town at this point. Will keep tabs.

Jim posts one big post a day, which is fine, seems to be poking at people and issues they have. Had a lot of trouble with my conclusions re:Lenglon, but I think I may have a stronger opinion on benign/neutral third-parties and how to deal with them than most people, so… probably not something to worry about? Another one capable of seeming town when scum. I’m less sure about him than Toony, and I seem to be wavering on him based on other reads, mostly Max.

Persus13 hasn’t done a whole lot, poked at NQT a bit, did point out that Tric really shouldn’t know Max is setting up mislynches, though I don’t know how much experience Persus has with Tric’s particular brand of madness. Did offer reads in multiple players when prompted though, and asked questions of those they weren’t sure about as a consequence.

Vector is ill, can’t really fault a lack of action as when I had Covid it was faaaaackin’ bruuuutal even after getting over the initial infection, so hopefully they recover soon.

Tric is being sufficiently unpredictable that I go back and forth on being sure he’s town and then sure he’s scum. I think I may need to see clips from other people to truly get a read on him if he isn’t flipped first.

Egan_BW was not present for the longest time, and I have seen them completely disappear of the map as scum. Explicitly said they weren’t going to engage with the game pre-entrance, though subsequently appeared to. Did say pre-game they were going to play to tilt people, has cooled on their initial energy since arriving.

4mask is 4mask!4mask. He didn’t start the game with his usual scattershot voting, but he’s being playful, if not particularly forthright in pushing people, and is using other people’s reads on Tric to scumread Tric, which I don’t like. Something to keep an eye on.

Max is being typically cagey and weird for Max, which is normally difficult for me to get a read on, but he seems to be getting a little opportunistic with the voting maybe? Said he would vote people based on whether he didn’t know much about them, whether or not they would be productive, and whether or not they basically weren’t him. I don’t think I’ve ever seen Max make so many votes in an entire game, never mind D1. I think he’s mostly interacting with people based on what people are saying about him, or when someone asks him a question, which makes me feel like he isn’t particularly interested in moving the game forward.

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A sensible choice for the scumteam might be Max/4mask/Egan, suitably distanced from one another doing their own thing, but none particularly pushing the game forward for town. Weak reads on 4mask and Egan though, fwiw. Mostly PoE on their part.

The mad team would be Max/EJ/Jim, given Max and I were a recent scum team and he intimated doing weird WIFOM-y shit on D1 to make his team seem unlikely candidates together, was something he liked to do. Max and EJ have linked themselves with the gelling thing, and Max, normally not very promiscuous with his vote, asked Jim to choose who he should vote for. It’s an interesting combination of sheeping and distancing that could be coordinated, but probably isn’t and I’m mostly just worried about Max.

PPE: a million posts that I am not reading before posting this. I have a migraine brewing and a possibly unpleasant afternoon besides.

Top of page 11/post 150 for all you weirdos not using default ppp

KW saying they’d probably shoot Jack if they had a day vig, but it’s early and they’re busy so could be worse; I’m expecting elaboration later.

NQT has been asking questions of many people, easy enough to do as scum but willing to give the benefit of the doubt as poking others into activity is generally good. Promised a reads list after Tric and Egan posted, expecting that later too.

Max answering questions from Jim, being typically cagey of Max Spin, also says a lot on their ability to read KW that ends up in basically saying nothing (would normally scumread KW for doing certain things but isn’t this time because they got it wrong in the last game?) tells off EJ for scumreading Jim over nothing (I agree), also tells me activity is AI for some players in the game, and agrees with a point I made about Lenglon looking like they want to be scumread overnight. Could be buddying me, but I’m not sure if that’s something scum!Max would do, especially as how I had been taking the line that Lenglon is TP and not worth worrying about during the day. I think Max is smarter than that?

*break for baby and food*

NQT and Max have a back and forth about the evil witch. Max seems to flip-flop a bit, initially being confident there’s a greater than zero number of evil witches in the game in post 155, but eventually concludes there might not be any in post 157 after NQT points out though red herring or a vampire hunter role with no vampires in a previous game. Accuses NQT of being the witch, which feels a little bit like throwing shade rather than an actual accusation.

It could be that this is a scum team of Max and NQT deflecting suspicion of a scum team onto, but at this point in the game, that seems very unlikely.

NQT comes out this looking more town to me, Max… is still a difficult read for me, I’m not sure if the flip-flopping means anything, but combined with the cheeky accusation at the end, I think it might be something to keep an eye on.

I feel I’m typing too much.

*previews post*

Yeah probably.

Persus talking about previous games, does make a fair point about EJ poking Jim as trying too much but not doing enough, though. Pokes NQT over theorycrafting without D2 flavour. Kind of a null post, maybe kinda sorta leaning town? Need to see more.

*further distractions*

Eh the rest is Tric being Tric.

Probably just be better doing a reads list or something. This post is a bit pointless but fuck it that’s what happens when the game is made unfun and I have other shit to deal with.

@Hector: How did you conclude Lenglon was Third Party? I mean, I certainly have my theory, but how would you explain/paraphrase it?

You asked them to say “I am Good” and they said “I am not Evil”, which is not the same thing, and is basically saying “I am third-party”. That bothers me for a number of reasons I might cover later depending on what else was posted, but remind me if I don’t because it’s semi-important.

And fine, since it seems there's no point in holding this back at this point, I am Neutral. My wincon is identical to the Good wincon, but Evil can win ( and I lose) while I'm still alive. I initially thought I wouldn't be the only Neutral like this, and that I needed to meatshield for our Good players, treating them as VIPs.

Didn’t think I’d make it two posts and have to explain anyway.

People earlier were suggesting Lenglon might be a survivor, which means her presence is bad for town which gets worse the longer the game goes because their goal is to survive, which doesn’t necessarily mean winning with town. Town also can’t use the elimination to get rid of it because survivors aren’t anti-town so it would be a waste, so I hope that town have a night kill they can use to deal with her.

I don’t think it would be outside possibility that a survivor might fakeclaim all of this, but it still presents the problems as above.

Of course, all this doesn’t really matter if she is indeed just lying scum, but why would scum draw so much attention to themselves with such a bold claim as being unable to lie, then basically claim something that is best dealt with in the night in a power heavy game?

*reads ahead*

Then be a dick when someone wants to test their claims in a deduction game.

People who have some idea of Lenglon’s meta: is she prone to getting this bent out of shape as either alignment?

Like… what NQT is doing to deal with Lenglon’s claims is not unreasonable, even if she’s covered it before.

Eurgh. I’ll do more later, people being asshats really removes my motivation for playing the game.

Jiiiiiiiim I pfp so I am not clipping that quote to show what I’m responding to urgh.

Lenglon had basically admitted to being TP by the time I made the post. It could very well be that Lenglon is lying scum, but I mention in a later post that I can’t prove that, and given the nature of the game (everyone has some sort of night action) I don’t think it’s worth pursuing an elimination based on “well you probably are lying” when she’ll probably (alright, hopefully) be dealt with in the night.

I absolutely don’t like leaving an admitted non-town player alone, but given the above, if she is lying scum, she probably won’t be performing the kill (assuming a team, anyway) because of drawing night actions, and if she is telling the truth about not lying, has said they aren’t evil and are thus not a threat to the town.

It makes sense to me, but I’m very not good at expressing what my gut tells me, especially at 2am.

PPE: Lenglon’s list seems to be variations on “hasn’t posted enough to get a solid read”. I also don’t like the expectations of activity on those reads, less than 24h into D1, when activity is NAI.

Why do people need to claim not-town and make me hugely suspicious of them on D1 *sigh* I’ll probably need to revisit this when I’m awake. Is it just me or does it come across as wanting to be scumread?

I have considered short-duration lies, typically corrected before day's end, to be a major part of Town's toolbox for a very long time. I currently do not recall a single game I have played where I was town and did not perform some form of lie at least once at some point throughout the game. In each case that comes to mind I at some point would lie in order to attempt to manipulate the scumteam.

Hector: Generally you shouldn't completely trust anyone in a mafia game, so...

And my primary motivation for choosing to follow the post restriction is RP-based, rather than for my own gain. But I understand why you wouldn't trust or care about that.

Exactly, so you’re not going to claim being unable to lie as town, limiting your toolbox thusly, or your town capital later.

Consequently, you’re either telling the truth, in which case you’re TP and not worth pursuing right now, or you’re not, but I can’t prove that, and thus not worth pursuing right now.

So I can completely distrust you and be fine with that in a power heavy game. For right now.

Jim

I’ll jump on the Jim wagon until I come back tomorrow, because the Toony wagon collapsed.

Aww nobody chose entrance music (blue) meanies.

Lenglon’s probably third-party if their claim about a post-restriction is true, but I have my doubts it is.

There would be no need for a town!Lenglon to mention a post restriction like that, ‘cause town don’t really need to lie; it would be a little harsh to have a “can’t lie” post restriction on scum in a game of social manipulation (though webadict I think does sometimes tailor roles to players, possibly in more bastard setups though) which leaves TP.

Post Restriction Claim Here: I should not lie, and could face consequences for doing so.

Anyway, I’m mostly discomfited by the wording of the claim. “Should not lie” as opposed to “cannot lie”, “could face consequences” as opposed to “will face consequences”.

I can’t quite articulate what bothers me about it, but I think feels like almost hedging? As opposed to making specific statements. I get if they can’t shouldn’t lie, but this feels like something they should know the specifics of and not have to come across worried about lying about, given it’d be in their PM.

PPE: 5 posts came in while writing this and being distracted by things, and I haven’t read ‘em yet.