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Messages - hector13

Pages: 1 ... 165 166 [167] 168 169 ... 1297
2491
As a Russian, I'm sorry for the crimes my people inflicted on the people of Ukraine. Whenever I talk to an Ukrainian on the internet, I profusely apologize if the subject comes up. I'm really guilty.
I sympathise with the sentiment, but you're no more guilty than any other fellow human being in this mess. I feel sorry for ordinary Russians who don't want this - you're a victim of a horrible police state ruled by thugs.

Wish I had half the courage to start any sort of revolution if I was in your position. To be honest I would probably chicken out and attempt to flee the country.

Nobody in the thread has the courage to start a revolution either, that’s why they’re in the thread talking about it. ::)

You don’t have to be in a country to actually do anything in the country either. Erdogan blamed a Turkish cleric for the “coup attempt” a few years ago. The Dalai Lama has been exiled for years and he’s still doing good for Tibet.

2492
In what way is endless civil war a success?

Or are we just defining success as murdering the incumbents and their allies, and caring nothing for what happens after?

2493
Good luck against the trained soldiers then, I guess.

The thing you're missing here: an Authoritarian government is going to respond to any challenge to its rule with said trained soldiers. That's literally Max's entire point, that non-violent resistance only has a CHANCE of working in countries that actually give a shit about what their people think.

Your point that the odds of violent resistance has a low chance of succeeding is reasonable, but you have to understand that what Max is saying here is that in countries like this, the violent option is the one more likely to do anything.

Imagine if you will a government that will deploy soldiers to gun down any protest against its regime. Now imagine how that's likely to go if the protestors being shot have nothing but signs to hold up vs. if they came expecting a fight from the beginning. If the government is going to just murder you in cold blood for speaking up either way, what do you think are your chances if you just stand there and take a bullet to the face instead of shooting back? The odds may be low, but zero is a pretty low bar to clear here.

We already have a near-example of this difference here in the US despite being a country that is obstinately a democracy, where armed protests have generally gotten a much less hostile response from police. This example IS muddled by the fact that the armed protests tend to be right-wing and the cops themselves are right-wing, but if we didn't have our pesky partisan clusterfuck fucking things up and the police attitude was consistent, I would still expect armed protests to either be given more leeway if that consistency was in the "please don't shoot us like you don't shoot them" direction, or be harder for police to quell if things went the "please shoot them like you shoot us" direction instead.

And my point is that violent uprisings don’t work that well either, and even if they do manage their short-term objective of listing someone from power, you now have leaders that have used violence to achieve their position and are thus going to use violence to maintain that power, you have a precedent set that all it takes to win power is to be be more violent than the last person, and various groups of people who are now being oppressed because they were fighting against the winners, whose only option now is to use violence in return.

It is self-defeating at best.

Take Syria. Armed uprising in 2011, still fighting a civil war 11 years hence, the groups that are fighting the government are also fighting amongst themselves because while they may share the goal of ousting the incumbent, they all have different ideas of what should happen afterward. That sounds really constructive and conducive to a healthy situation at the war’s (eventual?) conclusion.

Take Libya. Armed uprising in 2011 against Gaddafi succeeded after almost a year of fighting. Some groups refused to disarm, causing tensions, elections were held in 2014 and various groups supported by various foreign influences got upset with each other over the results and the aftermath, and a further 6 years of fighting ensued. Elections due later this year.

Take Tunisia. A country considered among the most repressive in the world in 2011, 4 weeks of protest resulted in the authoritarian leader fleeing to Saudi Arabia. 11 years hence there is still work to be done,  but there’s a bit less outright violence than Syria and Libya.

Tunisia may be an ideal in terms of how it non-violent protest turns out, but it does seem to have more pleasant outcomes than violence when it does work.

But whatever, kill away. If the Russians are fighting each other they’ll be too busy to fight anyone else.

2494
All the majors have voted and the rules state that a tie is broken by the minors.

If anyone has a problem with it they should’ve made a better argument.

2495
Good luck against the trained soldiers then, I guess.

2496
Apparently we do.

What I don’t understand is what you think happens after Putin and his cronies are murdered. What do you think will happen?
I don't really know either. I'm willing to take the risk.

What makes you think a violent uprising will be more successful than a non-violent one, given that Putin controls all the apparatus to put a violent uprising down, from law enforcement, to the military and intelligence services?
What makes you think a non-violent uprising will succeed at all?

If the people become radicalized enough, I feel a violent revolt will be more likely to succeed, especially if part of the army and governors side with the rebels.

Why would they side with the rebels when they’re being paid by the government? Equally so, radicalized people don’t magically become de-radicalized when they win. If there’s factional disputes, theey’ll turn on each other, too.

Non-violent uprisings have advantages over violent ones, as per the article I linked earlier:

  • More people will be able to take part because it’s not limited to healthy people able and willing to engage in violence.
  • Able to be organized and discussed in the open because you’re not talking about engaging in violence against the government, plus no need to source weapons.
  • Security personnel may be less inclined to put down a non-violent protest by force because they’re not being violent, plus the risk of hurting loved ones because of the aforementioned “open to all” nature of non-violent protest.
  • Media coverage will be harder to spin against the protesters if they’re non-violent, compared to a violent one. Equally so, violence against non-violent protesters is going to be much harder to justify in the media, even if it’s state-controlled. Word of mouth from protesters and observers will get around

I think non-violent protests are harder to put down than violent ones. A violent protest justifies a violent response. A non-violent protest will probably get more support if it’s put down violently, which rather defeats the purpose of putting it down in the first place.

2497
Apparently we do.

What I don’t understand is what you think happens after Putin and his cronies are murdered. What do you think will happen?
I don't really know either. I'm willing to take the risk.

What makes you think a violent uprising will be more successful than a non-violent one, given that Putin controls all the apparatus to put a violent uprising down, from law enforcement, to the military and intelligence services?

2498
Apparently we do.

What I don’t understand is what you think happens after Putin and his cronies are murdered. What do you think will happen?

2499
Rise up and protest. They can’t throw everyone in jail.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190513-it-only-takes-35-of-people-to-change-the-world
What a pile of bullshit, they will just ignore protests, even on massive scales. You are a child. That's not how authoritarian governments work.

Clearly the authoritarian governments that fell to non-violent protests were not authoritarian enough?

Never mind we’ve had the talking past each other thing already we don’t need to do again.

2501
‘cause then nobody gets their revenge, and then nobody gets their revenge on them, and then nobody gets their revenge on them, ad infinitum.

2502
This is my role. I'm now the purveyor of trans life comics that make me happy.

There are words to the effect of “being trans doesn’t make you different, it makes you human” that I can’t really find because I am exhausted.

It was a nice comic though.

2503
General Discussion / Re: Things that made you mildly upset today thread
« on: August 28, 2022, 06:24:17 pm »
I’d just ignore him, chances are if he believes stuff in 40 minute specials he won’t last long.

2504
47B has a bit more variety, and if there are alligators, we can do some leather working later. Quite a versatile thing.

Quote from: Major Votebox
Expand 47-C: (1) m1895
Expand 47-C and use a Wood Token: (1) Powder Miner
Expand 47-B and use a Wood Token: (1.1) Minors
Quote from: Minor Votebox
Expand 47-B and use a Wood Token: (2) Taricus, Doomblade
Expand 47-C and use a Wood Token: (1) hector13
Adobe buildings (1): Quarque

2505
I think it will go to ethanal or vinegar. The same thing happens in organisms.

I read that very wrong at first.

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