Bay 12 Games Forum

It may be too late but lots of water will at least take the edge off.

Quote from: Luckyowl on January 20, 2021, 08:58:36 pm

This game was cursed by yours truly. But jokes aside. Sorry for being rash at the end. I didn't want the mafia to tie the vote. So I flipped another coin and you came up.

I really don't like you taking this approach. I'd be OK if you just thought I was scummier than hector because that would mean he beat me by being more convincing. But if you put it down to a coinflip all the discussion we had feels pointless.

I’ll +1 this. I considered just waiting out the game when Leafsnail made their late super post, but I wanted some agency in whether I won or lost rather than just winning by default.

You got a lot of flak for flipping a coin in the last game so I wasn’t expecting you to do it again.

That doesn't... you think I'm scum but you're willing to lynch Luckyowl?

I'm cool putting Luckyowl in the catbird seat for the final couple of hours, sure. I feel confident enough in my read on:

Leafsnail

Also who's hector9?

Why would the deep state that Trump has been waging an invisible war on for the last 4 years suddenly submit to Trump - presumably by allowing him to remain in power for four (potential 8 though Biden I think said he would only be in for one term?) more years - and why would Trump want to win this invisible war by making it look like he lost?

Or do I just not understand 5d chess enough?

I'm tempted to hop in but I'm still not convinced I'd be able to play adequately so I'll just avail myself as a replacement.

So none of you better replace out on Day 1.

I think I’ve ragequit the last two games I played, so no guarantees...

Okay, cool.

Why am I scum? This is important, particularly if you say what I think you’ll say.

Beyond that, hare you going to convince Leafsnail I’m scum? You could flip the coin on this question, and consider it as how are you going to convince Leafsnail you’re town?

Ninja’d, but meh.

in, you wankers.

Quote from: hector13 on January 18, 2021, 05:34:39 pm

On the other hand, scum gain a significant disadvantage by not understanding the game. Rocket surgery, it is not. We are each one of two things from everyone else's perspective, the trick is figuring that out. I could go further into possible means for each player to win the game, but that would be a pointless endeavour because it doesn't mean anything.

Thus, knowing how the game works isn't alignment indicative. I'm slightly disgusted that you appear to think it is given I'm pretty much beatifying you later.

Quote from: hector13 on January 18, 2021, 05:34:39 pm

Leafsnail

Why are you indicating trust toward Luckyowl over non-alignment-indicative things?

Knowing how the game works inside your head isn't alignment indicative in and of itself, no. But sharing that information with other players is, to some degree. A town player benefits from his fellow townie also understanding the game. A scum player does not benefit from the opposing town players doing so.

This is the contrast I saw in those early posts. LuckyOwl has, I feel, demonstrated insight into how the setup works and shared it with the thread. You on the other hand have I think demonstrated some awareness (with your initial vote and the comment about bluffing being a super saint) but have not made any attempt to explain - in fact I'd go further and say that some of your posts are potentially misleading.

I've already said that me misleading was a means toward getting out of the quagmire that is RVS. I hate RVS, and I will do anything to get out of it.

I don't agree with you that sharing how the game works is alignment indicative at all. I have, on plenty of occasions, offered mechanical advice on the game as scum in an effort to come across as town. Usually in RVS, because staying in RVS for as long as possible is a good thing for scum, and chatting about mechanical theory is a tremendous way of keeping that going.

Why are you so focused on our knowledge of the mechanics, again?

You do say further down in your post that you voted LO rather than me because you trusted me not to rush to a hammer, and I do understand that. But town!LO misunderstanding the setup could still be a problem for you if you're on the same team. I have the same objection to you declaring that he has to be scum even as an RVS tactic - what if LO were to take the bait and refuse to unvote you?

*shrugs* shit happens. If Luckyowl didn't understand the setup prior to the game starting, I don't think Luckyowl would understand the setup during the game no matter how many times it was explained, in part because they wouldn't necessarily know whether or not to trust what's being said by the two other players in the game.

Should I let another player's naivete move me away from the plays I think are the best for my team? That's a hard no from me.

Quote from: hector13 on January 18, 2021, 05:34:39 pm

What did I walk back? I maintained my vote on Luckyowl. Actions speak louder than words, yes?

The thing I "should have thought of" was that scum have much better reason to be aggressive than town, as they lose nothing by being the first vote on a wagon, and could potentially lose the game by being the second.

This isn't right. A townie has just as good a reason to be aggressive - they also win by being the first player on a super-saint lynch. I... thought you already realized this? Why else would you vote first?

We appear to be talking from slightly different perspectives here. I'm talking from the mechanical perspective that the two vanilla players are going to look very similar in the early game because they each have something to gain by being aggressive. The VT want the mafia to be the hammer vote on any lynch, while the goon wants to avoid being the hammer vote on the lynch.

Basically, I think this is where the disconnect lies. These two posts should really be read as one:

*flips a coin*

*completely ignores this*

LuckyOwl

Town can win by lynching scum, or by scum hammering the wrong townie.

We got nothing to lose by being aggressive.

Neither does the mafia, likes eh, but I guess I should have thought of that before being quite so bold...

Eh. Maybe Luckyowl can’t drag out the game if they’re one of the choices on the block.

"Town can win by lynching scum, or scum hammering the wrong townie. We have nothing to lose by being aggressive... neither does the mafia though, but I guess I should have though of that earlier."

The bolded part is the misleading part, which I touch on in the final part of this post.

Also that post just felt self-conscious to me, a scramble to distance yourself from appearing as mafia. I accept there is some need to care about what alignment you appear as even when you're playing town, but usually working out who's playing as which alignment is more at the fore in that case.

I'm a bit self-conscious. Despite the "bizarre RVS moves to get the game moving" being a staple of my game, I'm surprisingly inept at talking my way out of it after the fact. I have over-explained and been told I'm trying to get out of a bad situation, I've under-explained and got annoyed at everyone's questions, I just need to find the sweet spot. I could stop doing it but... I think it's the best way to get out of RVS.

I let you know why I did what I did, if I did a good job, cool beans, if I didn't, I guess I found another way not to make a lightbulb explain my nonsense.

Overall I really appreciate that you opened the day with substantive content because it made the game a lot more interesting. But I'm struggling to build a mental model for you that makes sense - the amount you know about the setup seems to vary from post to post.

By design, yes. My first couple of posts were to paint me as a somewhat overeager VT, get things moving. After Luckyowl voted me, I feigned the confidence of my read on Luckyowl to prompt you to do things so you could be read more easily. After you posted, I had to lift the kimono a little bit and explain what I was doing, lest we get distracted by discussing hector13's RVS strategems.

This doesn't really explain what I know about the game, but... I don't think mechanics are important, and I'm not entirely sure why we're still talking about them.