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Messages - hector13

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4126
General Discussion / Re: AmeriPol thread
« on: October 01, 2020, 09:07:01 pm »
And if voters have no confidence in police to protect their right to vote, why, they'll protect themselves.
While there have been cases of misconduct on the part of the police, it is important not to exaggerate matters. A lot of cops are doing good work and of course that never makes the news - only the worst excesses do. I hate the term "fake news", but the constant focus they have on the most negative shit that happens in a population of millions does have a terrible effect on opinion forming - and that goes for people across the political spectrum.

Well yeah.

If the police do their job right, shit is good. When police do their job wrong, as in a great number of cases in recent years, shit needs to be brought to light so it can change. The media can only point things out though, they can’t force the change to be made, and since very little has changed because this shit keeps happening it’s always in the news.

Maybe this time will be different, but since it feels like everyone in a position to do something about it doesn’t give a shit, maybe when the next person that is wrongfully killed will get some justice.

4127
Gee, they seem pretty bad at prosecuting police officers, though. What with only recommending wanton endangerment to the jury, even when ballistics show that it's inconclusive that Walker even shot the wounded officer. Maybe our prosecutorial system has some flaws, and we should change it.

What about the all important news cycle!!

4128
General Discussion / Re: AmeriPol thread
« on: October 01, 2020, 02:31:09 pm »
The up side is that militias and other people willing to pull shit like that are very small in number. Polling places are very large in number.

It's the same argument against any other widespread election fraud. It's very difficult to pull off in any manner that would affect a national election in any reliable way.

This is doubly true this year with mail in ballots being available almost everywhere.

I’d like to point you to Mikwaukee the Wisconsin special election in April, which had its usual 180 polling places reduced to 5, because of Covid-19, cases of which are on the rise in - if I recall the morning news correctly - 30+ states.

It just needs to happen once to become a talking point, and then Trumo will extrapolate that to the rest of the country that his supporting militias were necessary to stop all that voter fraud, man.

4129
Being armed and firing off one shot, even if it had been the ex-boyfriend that did it and not a completely innocent guy, does not make the response of wantonly shooting dozens of bullets into an apartment they don't have sight into called for.
Ultimately, that's where we disagree. I can't imagine why anyone would think being fired upon does not justify firing back.

And that is why American citizens have to fear being murdered by their own police and Europeans do not.

Eh...mostly. The UK still likes to shoot people, but it's less common.

It’s telling you have to go back 15 years to find something.

Mark Duggan is the most recent example I can think of, and that still happened almost a decade ago.

4130
So what I'm hearing is that the police shouldn't be allowed to gun innocent people down in their homes without concrete reason or cause, but that the law 100% allows them to do so as long as a judge tells them they can enter the home and somebody else shoots first, even if they don’t identify themselves as police before bursting through the door.
FTFY
FTFY

Imagine I've just cooked some food, made a plate, and sat down at my dining room table, intending to eat with my family.  Before taking my first bite, suddenly my front door crashes open and people with guns pour through and start shouting at me.  Reflexively, I dive from the dining room chair to the kitchen floor.  It's on the kitchen floor that I am shot.  My death sparks protests, and the protesters go with a narrative that I was shot while eating at my dining room table.  But interviews with my family reveal that I had not yet taken a bite, and I was not at the dining room table with my plate of food at the moment I was shot.  Is it a reasoned rebuttal of the protester's narrative to point out that technically I wasn't shot while eating at my dining room table?  Is there any good faith reason to bother pointing out this purely technical distinction?

She wasn't even lying down to sleep. She was awake and "Netflix and chilling" with her BF at the time.

The narrative is that police showed up to the wrong house and bust down the door with guns blazing, causing her to be riddled with bullets as she lie asleep and helpless. There is an implicit emotional appeal present in the technical inaccuracy.

This serves to distract the audience from the nuances that:
  • The police were at the right apartment to which their warrant authorized them
          (This could not have all been avoided if police checked the address a little more carefully.)
  • Both Taylor and Walker were awake and aware their door was being pounded down by somebody
          (Taylor was not incapacitated in a way that would have prevented her from taking cover.)
  • Taylor died in the hallway
          (From what I can tell, having moved closer to the danger than away from it.)
  • Police did not fire until fired upon
          (Police used the appropriate continuum of force.)
It is this set of facts which makes murder charges against the officers unjust.

They didn’t murder her, no, but they did kill her, and despite the wrongful death lawsuit being settled, nobody is being punished for her death.

They were at the right apartment. They found no evidence (neither drugs nor money) to show they should have been there. Even then, the warrant was justified as a result of varying degrees of falsehood.

They were both awake, and they both wanted to know who was pounding on their door. A normal response to people hammering on your door at 1am, I would imagine, hence the journey to see who is bothering them.

Police did not identify themselves, which is why they were fired upon when they smashed through the door. The AG said a witness said they did, but lawyers for Taylor’s family and Walker say 12 neighbours suggest otherwise, and the “independent witness” changed their story.

The police shot and killed an innocent unarmed woman in her apartment, because her legally armed boyfriend fired a warning shot to protect them from an unidentified threat that bust their door open in the wee small hours.

In the 32 bullets the cops fired, they managed to not hit the actually armed person once.

Despite one of them being charged with a crime, it is recklessly firing bullets into the walls of the apartment, and not killing the innocent unarmed woman wondering who’s breaking into her apartment.

Eh ninja’d but fuck it

4132
General Discussion / Re: AmeriPol thread
« on: September 29, 2020, 09:47:30 pm »
Worst thing tonight was Trump calling for his militias to "go into the poling places" on national television. That's gonna be a problem.

Neither Biden nor Wallace brought him up on that! I was waiting and wanting so hard for someone to say that he’s trying to intimidate the electorate but nothing. Shit man.

4133
General Discussion / Re: AmeriPol thread
« on: September 29, 2020, 09:41:57 pm »
In the end he ordered them to stand down, before he said something needs to be done in the very end. Classic Trump

He ordered them to stand by, which is chilling.

4134
General Discussion / Re: AmeriPol thread
« on: September 29, 2020, 09:01:22 pm »
did trump call biden a number 2

4135
Other Games / Re: How did you last die?
« on: September 29, 2020, 08:49:14 pm »
Very much the wrong thread

4136
General Discussion / Re: AmeriPol thread
« on: September 29, 2020, 08:42:29 pm »
Well.

This kinda sucks.

4137
General Discussion / Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« on: September 28, 2020, 06:30:15 pm »
The movie, apparently:

Thulsa Doom: "Infidel defilers. They shall all drown in lakes of blood. Now they will know why they are afraid of the dark. Now they will learn why they fear the night."

* hector13 goes a bit gruff

I’m Batman.

4138
They raided a drug house to get him. I can’t imagine the senior figures involved would invest their limited resources to plan and execute such a thing if they only had probable cause.

Isn't that kind of the whole point of a warrant? The requirement for conviction is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. You need a warrant to get that proof.

Judges don’t sign warrants because there might be evidence, they sign warrants because the police are sure the evidence is going to be there, else they’re wasting time, effort, and resources in searching when it may not be there. Search warrants include what evidence the police expect to find.

In this particular instance, the warrant was no knock, a type of warrant issued when, among other things, there is the risk of evidence being destroyed if they announce their presence (presumably because that’s what the police said would happen) but the folks executing the warrant were told to announce themselves anyway, suggesting they didn’t need to worry about that because they had enough already.

Further, if they were so worried that Taylor was involved in some capacity with Glover’s dealings, and were not sure if they would find anything, she’s then free to destroy other evidence if they can’t arrest her for anything. The change to them having to announce themselves means they weren’t worried about, as does the fact she wasn’t named on the warrant.

They raided a drug house to get him. I can’t imagine the senior figures involved would invest their limited resources to plan and execute such a thing if they only had probable cause.

Isn't that kind of the whole point of a warrant? The requirement for conviction is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. You need a warrant to get that proof.
Exactly this. Arresting on probable cause while getting warrants to find the evidence is normal. I don't know, man (hector), if you are going to just keep refusing to understand how policing works, I don't know what to tell you.

For somebody who is apparently so protective of their own rights, you’re setting the bar for allowing the police to search property awfully low. Taylor knew Glover so it’s okay for them to execute a no knock warrant on her property at 1am to search for someone else’s drugs? Come on, man.

Again, you’re not going to commit operational resources to arrest someone unless you have enough evidence to charge them with something. They wouldn’t be tracking his movements enough to arrest him 10 miles away at the same time they were raiding Taylor’s apartment if they weren’t absolutely sure they could charge him with something, anything, completely unrelated to the search in Taylor’s apartment because if they didn’t find anything (which is exactly what happened) they’ve wasted the resources for two (admittedly small-scale) operations and pissed off whichever judge they fooled into signing the warrants.

I understand what you’re saying regarding police work, but I think you’re oversimplifying it. Police work happens before the arrest, guys. If the police have committed resources to tracking someone, they’re not just going to arrest them and then hope to find evidence before they make bail or otherwise have to release them, and they’re certainly not going to raid every piece of property of everyone they know in order to find it.

No, they figure out relations between the suspect and other people so they can figure out if anyone else is involved in criminal activity, and certainly so they know what properties on which to execute search warrants.

4139
They didn’t need to raid Taylor’s apartment because they clearly had enough to arrest the guy without the evidence they may (or may not!) have received from Taylor’s apartment.
That's... really not how it works. They only need probable cause to arrest. They need evidence if they actually want to charge the guy, and the more evidence, the better.

They raided a drug house to get him. I can’t imagine the senior figures involved would invest their limited resources to plan and execute such a thing if they only had probable cause.

If the police were so worried about the potential loss of apparently key evidence against Glover, why would they knock and announce themselves at Taylor’s apartment, especially when it was a no-knock warrant?

4140
They didn’t need to raid Taylor’s apartment because they clearly had enough to arrest the guy without the evidence they may (or may not!) have received from Taylor’s apartment.

To summarize, then: they arrested their target because they had the evidence necessary to justify doing do so, raided a former partner, killed her, dropped the charges against her current boyfriend because there was enough evidence to suggest they didn’t announce themselves as cops (else he’d be going into a deep, dark hole for a long time) and then the city settled out of court with her family for a wrongful death suit, while nobody is actually being punished for the wrongful death, only shooting the walls of her neighbours apartment.

Justice in 2020.

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