Bay 12 Games Forum

Joe Buck isn’t commentating on Monday Night Football! Happy days.

I'm not sure he's even capable of that. He's not dealt with the whole antisemitism thing very well.

However, he has the support of the party members, but not the parliamentary party members, at least insofar as they tried to get rid of them, realised that the party members like him, so tolerate him because they need the support of the party members.

That was rather the point. It is continued, mostly by Barry, in the game as well, specifically the “master of unlocking” and “you were almost a Jill sandwich!” lines.

It was an utter travesty that those lines were either changed or completely removed in the REmake.

Quote from: Reelya on October 11, 2019, 05:11:36 am

"KKK Cleaning"

Turns out it's run by a guy with a stutter.

I genuinely lol’d.

EBWOP/addendum:

Quote from: hector13 on October 10, 2019, 12:07:54 am

Well, I’m out guys. Shouldn’t have joined the game in the first place. Too much effort to be treated like a cunt, and watch others be treated the same for trying to play.

I've seen too many legit real appeals to emotion on B12, which I have traditionally bought into because I didn't want games to die and I'm not too bothered about the unethical nature of this kind of emotional blackmail to chase the alternative, to bother reacting to this.
You didn't even show the good faith to actually bold out or anything like that. If you think I'm being too harsh, you can blame tiruin and flabort and everyone else who legit real did this shit as scum and then continued to play the game after garnering unwarranted town sympathy.

It was midnight, I was trying to sleep, posting by phone.

Out, by whatever means. Modkill, lynch, replacement, doesn’t matter. If I have to self vote, then that works too.

Quote from: hector13 on October 08, 2019, 07:30:33 pm

I didn't say you were going to be able to lynch dolores solely off that, I suggested you were planting seeds to reap later, in a manner similar to what dolores said they would do with Questorhank if they didn't step up.

The difference between the two, as I'm sure you will ask, is that dolores won't need to rely on an argument made in the early goings of the game should Questorhank prove to be less than stellar, whereas dolores is going to be a tough nut to crack and you'll need to pull out all the stops to lynch 'em, hence the airing of my suspicions.

The way I see it, this implies one of three arguments: "IcyTea31 and dolores are of the same alignment", "what IcyTea31 is doing isn't alignment indicative" or "what IcyTea31 is doing is scummy, but what dolores is doing isn't, because of their chosen targets."

I don't know if I and dolores are of the same alignment. Do you?

If what I'm doing isn't alignment-indicative, why do you say it makes you suspicious?

Emphasis mine. I made no implications, you made inferences. Consequently, your questions here are invalid.

Also, please don't put words in my mouth, it's very annoying.

The second half of the third part is further nonsense, my read on dolores presently has a lot to do with my read on you, though them answering questions directed at me and pressuring you could easily be them buddying.

The first half of the third part is correct, in that the very first thing I said in our interaction was:

I'm not sure what your plan was here. It looks like you're laying groundwork to take out a stronger player. The earlier you start on that, the easier it will be.

So again, no implication, this is a direct statement that I thought you were trying to lay the foundations for taking out dolores later. This leads into:

If I was scum, why would I lynch and not nightkill dolores?

There are two very good reasons that scum!you would attempt to lynch dolores.

Firstly, the town's only method of getting rid of scum is the lynch, which enough people have to agree on to make. If you can not only get rid of a town player with a lynch, but a town player that can rally the town behind them, for good or ill? You would receive much kudos for that.

Secondly, and I'm not particularly happy to have to bring this up publicly, you are aware there is a 2/3 chance of there being a jailkeeper in the game. A sensible jailkeeper this early in the game is going to use their power to protect one of their strong town reads. You also know that dolores starts the game strongly as any alignment, and is going to be among the top town reads of enough players that there is the strong possibility that they get protected N1, so even if scum!you tried to NK dolores, you are far from guaranteed success.

And again, honest question: how could that argument be used as 'seeds to reap' against a strong player? In my experience, having a huge pile of weak evidence against someone over a couple strong arguments only serves as an intimidation tactic. I would argue that scum!dolores would have more to gain than scum!IcyTea31 from their respective arguments, because there is hope of intimidation working against QH.

dolores already pretty much said what needed to be said here. It's not how strongly you start in mafia, but how strongly you finish.

If we were going by what I would do in scum!you's position, this isn't a D1 lynch. Maybe midway through D2 you point out the deliberately nonsensical argument you made as the start of your suspicions against dolores, and that you have found some other things that dolores has done that support that assertion. Boom, now you have a case against dolores.

If none of the above, what exactly is your argument here?

Frankly, what I'm doing is trying to figure out what your motivation was for your deliberately nonsensical argument. The reasons you have presented so far don't make sense.

Quote

You have said your argument was deliberately nonsense; could you describe to me how someone would engage with a deliberately nonsensical argument in good faith - fairly, openly, honestly - and also in bad faith - a duplicitous, backstabbing ma'fa'?

The difference for nonsensical arguments is that town players usually back off the argument itself when they realize little useful information lies that way, and turn to the player instead.

What do you mean here by "turn to the player instead"? The only things you have in this game are the positions you present the other players, and you have stated the position you took on dolores using psychological tricks to mind control other players was deiberately nonsense, and you have suggested that you took that position in order to paint a target on your back (for whatever reason) but then you go on to say that only scum want to lynch you, which... I mean, I'm struggling to understand what you expect painting a target on your back will achieve for the town, while simultaneously saying only scum will respond to it.

I mean, the point of a target is to be shot at, yes? So when people start shooting at the target and then the target jumps up and says "haha, I'm not a real target, you're all really bad at shooting" it does raise many questions.

As I have done in past games, and how I posted clear numbered steps to do.

... this isn't paint by numbers, guy.

Quote

So your plan is to deliberatly make it easy to lynch you, and see which players are not on your team (are scum) by determining which players don't try to lynch you?

The opposite: the players who entertain the thought that they might not have determined my alignment yet are most likely town.

See the whole fake target metaphor thing above.

This doesn't make sense, though. If dolores and I are not trying to figure out your alignment, what are we doing by engaging with you?

Quote

Regardless of my alignment, it's in my interest to see you lynched. The correlation between 'easy to lynch' and 'should be lynched (is scum or antitown)' is generally pretty high, and the only real problem with that methodology is it's easier to lynch antitown than it is to lynch real scum.

It's not in your interest to see me lynched if we're both town, unless you believe my behaviour is actively counterproductive to the town's goal. Is that so?

dolores and I are the only ones engaging with this. Does that mean we're both scum or both town?

Quote

The only players who 'know you're town' are the players with the strongest motivation to lynch you.

Exactly. The whole point is to determine alignment by determining how motivated players are to lynch me. Town wants to lynch scum, scum wants to lynch me.

Again, this doesn't make sense. You paint a target on yourself, which attracts attention, but then you say it was bullshit, and... expect the attention to disappear?

Quote

I can't see how you could think this was a good idea unless your actual motivation is totally unrelated to your stated motivation and is more along the lines of trying to drag me into a hole of suspicion with you and then trying to climb out without my noticing.

Most likely not, since I've used this strategy before in games you were not part of.

See, dolores posted something about this in the mafia theory thread years ago. Basically, the idea was that during RVS you can get away with doing some off-the-wall bananas play in an effort to get people to respond and provide content so long as once it is clear your out of RVS you claim as such and stop, and actually start being sensible.

The problem with what you've done here is that it's not outside the realm of possibility that you would present this argument normally, which is why the reasoning behind it doesn't make sense.

---

I'll read the rest of the thread later.

Quote from: hector13 on October 08, 2019, 04:16:09 pm

Ah, the old this-is-so-anti-town-it-must-be-town routine. Having it pointed out means you can't rely on it anymore, so you might as well fall back on cliched defenses, I guess.

No, that was an honest question. How on Earth could I possibly lynch someone with an argument that nonsensical?

I didn't say you were going to be able to lynch dolores solely off that, I suggested you were planting seeds to reap later, in a manner similar to what dolores said they would do with Questorhank if they didn't step up.

The difference between the two, as I'm sure you will ask, is that dolores won't need to rely on an argument made in the early goings of the game should Questorhank prove to be less than stellar, whereas dolores is going to be a tough nut to crack and you'll need to pull out all the stops to lynch 'em, hence the airing of my suspicions.

If I'm wrong, ah well, but if I'm right, I'll pick up your breadcrumbs so you'll find yourself all alone in the forest and a big, scary witch'll come and take you to her candy house and let you eat it all and then cook you and eat you 'cause now you're fat and taste good.

Quote

How were you expecting dolores to respond as town?

How were you expecting dolores to respond as scum?

With or without good faith, respectively.

You have said your argument was deliberately nonsense; could you describe to me how someone would engage with a deliberately nonsensical argument in good faith - fairly, openly, honestly - and also in bad faith - a duplicitous, backstabbing ma'fa'?

IcyTea

Quote from: hector13 on October 07, 2019, 06:10:08 pm

IcyTea: At what point would you be bothered by me ignoring you completely?

When it would lose me the game. Right now, it wouldn't.

Quote

How come IcyTea and I get the same question? Do you expect our answers to differ that much?

I'm not surprised. We're practically married at this point.

I mean, my waifu would probably have something to say about that.

Except dolores was oddly quiet about it. I am chagrined.

Quote from: dolores on October 07, 2019, 06:28:34 pm

I don't get why naturegirl is playing the way they are. They're not making mistakes, they're not even at the same table. I need way more content of this sort to try and guess at alignment since it's got such thin correlation.

If your purpose is to see what sort of content they make and what sort of questions they ask, why are you controlling what content they make by priming and suggesting them to be deceptive?

Quote

But you're never going to -- answer questions like that honestly, so you pretend that's not the question you're asking and instead ask something that means the same thing but which they don't realise does (i.e. something you can compare to your interpretation of their metagame etc.).
If you're scum (figuratively or literally) you can ask questions you don't care about the answer to for the sake of convincing observing townies to lynch the player when they give a poor or contradictory response.
--
You're obviously here a lot. This means you've got the opportunity to do some work, like asking questions which are easy to answer

Emphasis mine. Try not to contaminate your data this early in the game.

While dolores can and has spoken for themselves in regards to this, I don't see what you see here.

Regardless, the effect of highlighting parts of a text is drawing the reader's eye to the highlighted parts, in so doing removing context if they don't read the intervening parts.

This is made even more egregious by the fact you edited out parts of the context yourself.

I'm not sure what your plan was here. It looks like you're laying groundwork to take out a stronger player. The earlier you start on that, the easier it will be.

hector13: How would you respond if I said I've got a scum gut read on you?

I wouldn't say anything, since in the hypothetical situations we have set each other I'm ignoring you.

However, before deciding on that answer I did run through a few, ranging from the comical to the confrontational. I decided to settle on cryptic.