Bay 12 Games Forum

I can only take one action N2.

He does that all the time why are you surprised.

@DA: Losing one member of the scum team isn’t that big of a deal if there are three members, so it’s unlikely there will be efforts to save them if they’re a lynch candidate on D1.

Leafsnail said it looked like Shakerag was trying to save me, so it’s reasonable for me to assume he was considering us a team, as I imagine was the point of him drawing my attention to that particular paragraph by voting me, and the particular wording of it.

While he said his case doesn’t rest on the possibility of Shakerag and I being partners, he is using it to support the idea. What do you think Leafsnail’s main argument is on me being scum?

What is off about the post you linked, regarding my interaction with Leafsnail?

Why do you think IcyTea’s consistency is a tell at all, town or otherwise?

Did you notice he supported the lynch of the person he has claimed is scum for the entire game, when the tie was already broken by said scumspect? That his scum read of me is based on someone else’s meta? That his initial vote was a clear OMGUS during RVS that hasn’t moved since? The fact he suggested scum killed Starver during the night because they may have felt they had a strong lynch candidate for D2, which is very likely to be his top scumspect?

Why is consistency more important than any one of those?

Kit has been focused on the SK for the entire game, and thinks throw-away comments during D1 are me claiming SK. Why does an unforced, unverified role claim push the scales toward town, when he’s had zero interest in finding mafia? Does his uninterest in changing his view on me until I flip bother you at all?

Considering all that, why is Nirur a null, when he’s actually engaged with the game moreso than Kit? Presumably you’re going to come out and say he’s the SK, as that’s the only other alignment presently missing from your list? If not, who might be the SK?

What is it about me that pushes the scales toward scum?

Is your read on Leafsnail based entirely on your read of me?

Why is Shakerag town?

One of my F’book friends posted that meme about “Curt” Cobain saying once his generation has matured, they’ll vote for someone sensible, like a business tycoon, like Trump.

Also, I didn’t say why I was voting MaxSpin at the time because I thought it was self-explanatory.

The first part about rabbits and burning skin off was DF adventure mode. Not sure what the rest is about.

Re: Kit and his nonsense: I was being facetious. You won’t find out my role until I flip, or decide it’s beneficial to town for me to reveal it.

I did say it was changed, ‘cause then people are aware that there is a power that does that in the game.

RGU

About my ability, I tried using it on IcyTea31 and hector13. If I wasn't roleblocked, could you two confirm? It's fairly useless, as it should inform you of knowledge you should already have. I'll answer questions later when I'm not feeling my head splitting in half.

I missed this.

Did you change my role? If so, why?

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@IcyTea since they format their posts in such a way I’m not going to mess about with it on a phone. Easy to understand what they’re chatting about, but too many quotes to shift around

Anyway, it’s a little rich you accuse me of arguing in bad faith when you say I didn’t tell you I thought you were lying, when it was made abundantly clear I didn’t think you were being honest. You’ve been ascribing motivations and reading between the lines of my posts all game long, and you expect me to believe you had no idea I thought you weren’t being honest? Come on, man.

I do some form of bad faith all the time. I don’t argue from a position I know to be false so much as a position I don’t necessarily know to be true. It’s investigation, basically.

This is why you voting for me was such a problem, even with your justification for it. You say you voted for me to get me talking, even though I was already voting for you and thus very likely to continuing talking specifically to you, and you could interact with me during that. This meant, from my perspective, you were trying to shut me down, to stop me talking about the thing I wanted to talk about by calling it scummy. In essence, keeping the game in a low information state, which is bad generally, but infinitely moreso on D1.

You also postulate that scum killed Starver/awsume because they felt they could get someone lynched easily. Considering I was one of the lynch candidates for D1, do you think it’s me?

If not, why, and who do you think it is? Why?

As for me misleading the town, I would suggest it was a mistaken town. I pointed out your hypocrisy using the example of rolefishing - intentional or otherwise - and people thought that I was more bothered by the rolefishing than hypocrisy. That was quite frustrating, actually.

Also, what’s the whole thing with RGU and the inform ability and reading him town because you would tell the person with inform to do the kill? It reads more like you’re saying you can’t be in the scum team with RGU (if RGU is scum) because he used inform.

PPE: you didn’t say you made your own case on you to get me to build a better case, you said you voted me to do provoke me. Again, I was already voting for you, did you not think a case would be forthcoming st some point for me to justify it? If not, why?

If you were trying to provoke me to make a better case with that, what had you so convinced I was scum when I continued my pressure on you by correcting you about I was concluding from the evidence?

and now you say you’re scum reading me based on someone else’s meta.

Like.

Let that sink in for a second.

I am scum because someone else was scum and you ascribed the same motivation to me as them.

Can I do what you do and say “no, u” and expect you to accept that as a reasonable defense? Thanks.

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Tric

Quote from: Superdorf on May 06, 2019, 03:11:04 pm

Oof. I have a lot of re-reading to do, now I know Max really is just an odd duck, and I'm gonna have to spend another few hours trying to make some sense out of the whole Hector/IcyTea blood-feud. For now, I'll just drop this question:

TricMagic: I vote you, you vote me. I unvote you, you unvote me. What gives?

Everyone: Might Maximum Spin's role have caused him to behave more oddly than usual? And given the stupidly powerful nature of his role, would no-lynch have actually been a good idea yesterday?

Hmm, First you voted me.
Then this response from me.

Quote from: TricMagic on May 03, 2019, 11:47:42 am

Quote from: Superdorf on May 02, 2019, 10:06:05 pm

------------------------------

TricMagic: You showed up, said some stuff about anime, plonked a vote on Maximum Spin, encouraged Shakerag to do the same, then disappeared. Would you care to explain the reasoning behind your vote?

Starver: Given your total silence these past few hours, I can only assume you're asleep. When you wake up, would you care to let us know who you find suspicious?

Well, this is a fun thing to check. Especially given I was asleep when you posted this.

At the moment, I won't explain my reasoning. For the reason behind this, tis simple. The start of the post above this one answers that.

I am finishing Solomon, Today. I have only 4 more battles to go, and plenty of quartz. Then, I'll do BB's event till I run out of AP. And after that, do the bio of my FEF character. Then do BB's event some more. Put simply, expect content from me tomorrow. Including my Reason for voting Maxspin.

Then this in a spoiler along with a list.

Quote from: Superdorf on May 03, 2019, 10:33:29 pm

TricMagic: Scum. He's not invested in this game. He's been quite clear about this. Unless he puts some serious effort in tomorrow, I'm inclined to believe he's scum-on-the-sidelines, jumping on the lynch that looks most reasonable to him.

I voted for you mostly because of that. It's a re-hash of an argument I delayed answering till later. As well, my vote on Maxspin was pressure, and didn't ever change till I came back. Your goof on jumping on a partial item, once you dropped that, I determined from your talk to drop mine, and move back to MaxSpin.

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IcyTea post nin'd.

Major issues with this.

Superdorf made a very good point about you not appearing to give much care to the game given you were posting nonsense about playing another game, and was quite right to vote you for it. Then you stop voting for him once he stopped voting for you.

I guess being naive enough to say that gets towncred..?

That comes across very much like why IcyTea voted me for, outlined above: to deflect attention away from a place you don’t want it.

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Superdorf

If you don’t understand something you can ask about it.

Anyway, I’ll try to be brief. Maybe bummer points help.

-IcyTea says knowing roles is pointless, and asks questions I perceive to be rolefishing, thus making him a hypocrite, so vote him to explain himself.
-Leafsnail defends IcyTea by attacking me which I perceive as hugely scummy because he doesn’t know if IcyTea is town, especially not on D1.
-IcyTea votes me. I perceive this to be attempting to deflect me away from him, also scummy, but not as much as Leafsnail.
-thus, Leafsnail is the more likely of the two to be scum.

I am now stuck trying to pressure two people with only one vote, and I was very busy over weekend, and expecting the day to end on Tuesday rather than Sunday, so massively over estimated how much time I’d have to develop what I decided to do: continue voting IcyTea in an effort to kill two birds with my one vote, and then panic when I realize there’s no time to explain what I was doing.

Leafsnail mentions at some point that scum won’t do obvious things like rolefishing, while he is obviously defending someone against an attack. Consequently, I don’t believe that IcyTea is on a scumteam with Leafsnail, but his behavior indicates anti-town, and as far as I’m aware the only anti-town third-party is serial killer.

We shouldn’t be looking for the serial killer on D1 - at least not primarily, we do need to find them eventually after all - so I needed to make it look like I thought IcyTea was mafia, else I didn’t think Leafsnail would bite, hence the dishonesty with who I really thought was scum.

What are the discrepancies that you refer to?

What are your thoughts on IcyTea buddying you?

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Leafsnail

hi

Quote from: Superdorf on May 06, 2019, 03:11:04 pm

Everyone: Might Maximum Spin's role have caused him to behave more oddly than usual? And given the stupidly powerful nature of his role, would no-lynch have actually been a good idea yesterday?

Ideally people should be given a chance to roleclaim before they're lynched (since if they're lynched their role gets revealed anyway, and some roles may be verifiable). Unfortunately that wasn't possible due to the way the time limit hit last night and several late vote changes.

Quote from: Shakerag on May 05, 2019, 12:04:33 pm

Ok, so someone asked me for a list of reads, so here's what I have after reviewing the thread (actual quote responses will be responded to as I read through the thread):
[...]
- hector13 - starts off on Icytea31 about rolefishing. May be claiming he has a suicide ability? Or maybe just being snarky. Claiming being unhappy with his role either way. Playing verbal footsie with IcyTea31. Believes in the heart of the cards vote. Switches focus to Leafsnail. I don't necessarily agree with his case on Leafsnail, but he's making a good argument for it. Also makes a good argument against IcyTea31. Slight town lean.
[...]
- Maximum Spin - Has a very ... unique theory on questioning and voting. Takes an early lazy vote on SuperDorf. So far seems to have contributed little of any real value to the game. Now talking about supporting a D1 no lynch. And that every vote should be treated like a hammer ... after having voted much, much earlier. Would pick Starver as daykill/top lynch choice. Would normally be a scummy move, but it's oddly consistent with his ... odd views. Seems to think highly of Nirur Torir. Overall read is null for D1, with a lean toward anti-town behaviour. Will be very interested to see how his playstyle changes on D2.

Quote from: Shakerag on May 05, 2019, 12:16:32 pm

So we have a tie on hector13 and Max Spin.  I'm reluctant to vote for hector13, but I would be ok with a Max Spin lynch.

There's some pretty next level fence sitting going on in these posts. The closest Shakerag gets to calling someone scum is Nirur Torir, who he describes as "Overall, very slightly scum, and someone I would want to keep an eye on in the future". His vote was already sitting on Maximum Spin, but the read was described as null. So was this supposed to be a policy lynch? Or was your "slight town lean" on hector13 enough that you wanted to keep him alive specifically? You can't describe this as a "tie-breaker" compromise vote because at the time of these posts your vote was causing a 3-3 tie with hector13.

I do still think hector13 is scum. The point I raise against Shakerag above is somewhat built on this belief - it looks like he wanted to save him.

Quote from: hector13 on May 05, 2019, 12:44:37 pm

taciturn (adj) - (of a person) reserved or uncommunicative in speech, saying little. +1 point for using reticent as a synonym

obtuse (adj) - deliberately dull and slow-witted, slow to understand. -1 point for using confusing as a synonym.

One way to avoid having to write a massive stream-of-consciousness clarification post would have been to avoid writing a deliberately obtuse (adj - difficult to understand, especially deliberately so) answer in the first place.

I don't think anyone else is reading this massive wall of text argument between us as it stands, so I don't think repeating myself to respond to your list of repeated points will be productive. If anyone else in the thread has questions for me regarding this matter I'll be happy to answer.

One new point that I am interested in: was your vote on Maximum Spin was strictly self-defensive? You provided no explanation when you made it.

Quote from: Nirur Torir on May 05, 2019, 01:26:22 pm

Quote from: IcyTea31 on May 05, 2019, 01:19:08 pm

For now, I'm fine with lynching Maximum Spin for wanting to practically surrender the game to scum.

A quickly written post with interesting wording. You don't think he's scum.

Is there a specific reason you picked out IcyTea's post here and not hector13's?

You need to get the last word in, cool. Notably the last word being “obtuse”, the word you think you can twist to make me look most misleading.

Then ask another leading question, presupposing self-defense as a motivation in me voting for MaxSpin, even though you yourself stated that no-llynches in this game would be bad. I think I could pretty much guarantee that - excepting jesters - 100% of players in my position would 100% of the time vote for the other lynch candidate. Do you disagree?

Anyway, you postulate an interesting situation between Shakerag and I in the quote. You state that I’m scum, and that it looks like Shakerag was voting to save me, presumably because he’s my scumbuddy.

Considering that, you said multiple times on D1 that scum wouldn’t rolefish ‘cause... it has negligible utility or whatever, it doesn’t really matter why.

Yet you think that as a scum team composing two of the more experienced players in this particular game, one of the players - me, who has been lynched three times on D1 in almost thirty games: in my first game ever; as a jester; and in a game in which the town won by being lynched before the mafia - would fail to blend in so utterly that they are one of the lynch candidates while also saying they wouldn’t lynch the other experienced scumbuddy, and then the other, skating by quite nicely under-the-radar, would then come out of the woodwork to save their buddy on D1, knowing there’s a serial killer in the game that could probably kill them during the night, and any other number of town power roles that could mess them up? Knowing the unresolved arguments from D1 mean their buddy is going to be on the chopping block again on D2?

Do I have that right?

‘cause that seems a lot more likely than scum rolefishing. Sure.